Peace, The Truce, Negotiations

**psilody**

This thread is intended as a civil discussion of the current situation. I am initiating it, because, quite frankly I don't fully understand it, nor how we got here. I am going to post some questions and comments, with the hopes that those with a more full knowledge will answer and engage in dialog. As such, please feel free to express your position on these issues, but try to refrain from anger. There are plenty of other places to vent your feelings. What I am looking for is a discourse on the facts of this situation.

The main facts I would like to ascertain have to do with the Truce itself. The fact that it is over does not change my questions, nor their relevance, at least to me (and I belive others as well). so...

1) What were the terms of the Truce to begin with?

Does anyone know? As Zion has apparently broken it, it would be nice to know exactly how.

2)A related question: How was the truce negotiated in the first place? While it is clear that somehow Neo managed it, does anyone know for certain what bargaining chip he had with the Machines? Have they revealed this information?

It must have been considerable, as they were within hours of wiping out Zion completely. And i am not refering to speculations here. We all have our ideas, but none of us were there with Neo when the arrangement was made. I am talking explicitly about what information the Machines have delivered regarding the Truce and its formation, as they are the only ones who possess it.

3) What is the level of involvement between the Machines and Cypherites, Zion and EPN?

Because if the rumors are true, then the Truce ended long ago, and I'm still not sure who ended it.

4) Why was there absolutely no discussion or negotiation regarding the recent end to the Truce?

It would appear that a unilateral decision was made to end it. Although the answers to the previous questions affect this.

These are my questions. Clearly, most of them should be addressed directly to the Machines. I would still be interested in hearing others ideas, especially Machinist Operatives who may be privy to some of this.

My purpose in asking them is to encourage open dialog, and hopefully new peace talks. There are many people and groups talking about it these days. While it may be helpful to form new groups or organizations to promote peace, it would also be critical to bring the party's that already exist to the table.

Thank you.

**Croesis**

Ok, here are my opinions based on what I've seen and been witness to. If anyone can provide evidence to contradict my views I will take them on board.

1) The terms were not disseminated to us Operatives in their entirety. Obviously the main points about holding fire, waking the 1% were well known. There have been many of what seems like violations of the truce as in the code pulse devices and Cyphs, although it has been said that they were there to prevent Zion waking more than the allocated 1% but these were seen and decided that warnings were, to either side, sufficient to prevent resuming outright hostilities. We have been told that the fact that Zion had built a new city with the ability to prevent Machine forces from going anywhere near or penetrate thus allowing the possibility to launch attacks on Machine installations and retreat back to relative safety, was a clear violation of the truce. It was the decision of the Architect to end the truce.

2) The truce was negotiated by the Architect and The Oracle on behalf of the Machine and Zion civilisations. It is unknown what kind of bargaining chip he had, if any. I feel that the Machines keeping his body could have been part of the bargain for some reason but to what end I have no idea. Many believe that the Machines had no need to lie and honoured their word, of course many others don't believe that.

3) This is a sticking point between many Machinists, about the Cyphs. While they do the things that Machinists either won't or simply can't, both Orgs are working the same path, in aid of the Machines. Personally I don't believe that the Cyphs have the same end state in mind as the Machines, but they are a powerful ally as much as we Machinists don't like it.

I cannot really say what the levels of involvement are with Zion and EPN other than what I see on the surface. They seem to be closer together than Machinist and Cyph, but The defensive nature of Zion and Offensive nature of the EPN can seem to conflict from time to time, not with violence but with strong opinions.

4) There was no negotiation between Machines of Zion at the termination due to the stubbornness of both sides, Zion did not want to lay down their arms to negotiate and the Machines were not willing to do the same until Zion had stopped hostilities. There were conversations between Organisations and their leaders straight away after the termination of the truce, basically stating their stance and to answer any questions or worries some may have...

I hope this has helped a bit...

**GamiSB** · 11/14/2007 14:24:34

1) What were the terms of the Truce to begin with?

Zion is allowed to free humans apart of the 1% without being hunted by the Machine. That was all and was left way to open.

2) How was the truce negotiated in the first place?

Oracle and Architect after Smith was defeated. Neo only told Deus Ex Machina that he wanted peace and it is unknown if anything else was said after that.

3) What is the level of involvement between the Machines and Cypherites, Zion and EPN?

The Cypherite org was created by the Machines for the purpose of hindering Zion awakenings. The Machine feared that Zion was awakening more then just the allowed 1%.

EPN was created by ex Zionites in retaliation of Cryptos claming that Neo wanted everyone to stay asleep in their pods. The two were not invovleved with each other but did lend a hand in certain situations (Cypherites and the Oracle's protection to name a few)

4) Why was there absolutely no discussion or negotiation regarding the recent end to the Truce?

As I understood it peace was only to be renegociated by the Machine once Zion returned to their old city. Sense the city is now gone I'm not sure if that still stands.

**CPT_Starschwar**

1) What were the terms of the Truce to begin with?

Zion was allowed to free the 1% of humanity that would choose to take the red pill - they could not, however, be outright told what the matrix is, forced to awaken, or anything like that. Richland was considered a free zone - zionites would have to obtain access keys for the outer districts. The

2)A related question: How was the truce negotiated in the first place? While it is clear that somehow Neo managed it, does anyone know for certain what bargaining chip he had with the Machines? Have they revealed this information?

Neo asked the Machines for peace in exchange for defeating Smith. The Oracle and Archie hammered out the specifics.

3) What is the level of involvement between the Machines and Cypherites, Zion and EPN?

The Machines overwrote various reds and some bluepills to gather data on Zion. They also created the Cypherites as a means to prevent Zion from awakening more than the alloted 1% - a sort of legal loophole, depending on your point of view. It suppose could be argued that the Cypherites prolonged the Truce... but I would disagree with that. However, Zion action against the Cypherites was not considered a truce violation.

Interestingly, the Machine 3.2 missions suggested that Gray was unaware that the Cypherites were the same group under Cryptos's controll untill 3.2.5, implying that a lot of their activities were done independantly from machine orders.

EPN was created by The Kid to counter the Cypherite movement. However, some overzealous EPN members detonated code bombs in the immediate vicinity of bluepills, forcibly awakening (and presumably killing) them. The Zion council disowned EPN for their actions and gave the Machines free reign to eliminate them. Zion discontinued its own anti-EPN activities, for fear of angering their population.

4) Why was there absolutely no discussion or negotiation regarding the recent end to the Truce?

The Machine policy boils down to this: they will negotiate with Zion if they lay down their arms and stop fighting.

**Croesis**

I would suggest that the truce was not just to allow Zion to wake the 1%. That would be a benefit to Zion and not the Machines and I doubt that the Machines would negotiate for nothing in return. Plus the point that the Architect said that New Zion was a violation must pertain to something else in the terms of the truce. Of course without the full details of the truce available to us, we don't know the specifics.

**psilody**

Thanks to all!

There are many pieces of inofrmation here that I was not aware of, especially the 1% part. They raise more questions, and I'll try to stay in order of the subjects I broached (my apologies, as this was probabaly too many questions at once).

1) It would appear that the only term on which there is agreement so far is a 1% cap on Awakenings (I am still uncertain if this was "In Writing", but i'll let that go for now). If this is true, it raises the question- What exactly is the population of the Matrix? I'm guessing in the billions. Do you know what 1% of a billion is? 10 MILLION PEOPLE!!!! I have some serious doubts that Zion has freed even 10 thousand, let alone ten million!((there would be a hellavu lot more people playin the game eh? lol)). And this would have to be translated into a yearly quota to be effective. (I'm not even going to explore the fact that the Machines can probly breed enough etxra people, and control death rates sufficiently to compensate anyway!) In any case, without population numbers and a yearly quota, this is a meaningless term. How can Zion obey it if they have no idea what target they're shooting for? This needs data, or should I say needed data 21/2 years ago.

And as far as New Zion goes, again there seems to be no explicite terms delineated here. I suppose the Machines could view a new city as a minor threat. However, as counterpoint, the Machines had just recently demonstrated that they could obliterate the old Zion. Even given the Truce it was in no way secure (especially from the Cypherites!). Is the Machine City secure? I'd put my entire info savings on it! But i didn't see Zion claiming that the Machines having a secure city was a violation of the Truce, eh? Again, without the terms of the Truce spelled out, how can Zion have known this would be a violation? So far, no one from Zion has responded to say their understanding, so perhaps they knew and simply violated, but thats not the sense I have here.

2) Most of those are rumors I am familiar with. However, I was hoping for some explicit confirmation. Unfortunately, it is unlikely that the Machines would want to reveal whatever weakness it was that Neo used ot Bargain, so I may have to settle for rumor. ((seriously folks, all the answers I see here come from the Movies, from scenes which, in character, we were not privy too. Even the part of the Oracle and Architect negotiating. No Operative from any organization can have this as direct knowledge, unless told so by the Machines and/or the Oracle.))

3) These are the kinds of rumors that i have been hearing, and that concern me. My main conclusion is this: The Machines appear to approve of and support, if not directly control, the activities of the Cypherites. I say appear because they seem to outwardly keep a distance. However, if they have been directing them, then it seems clear that the Machines have been in violation of the Truce for quite some time. Zion on the other hand has openly denounced EPN, and does not seem to directly control them (at least prior to the Truce' demise). I do not know if this is also only for show, but I have not heard rumors to the contrary.

4) What hostilities did Zion need to stop at the time the Truce ended? Was having a New Zion regarded as hostilities? How could Zion be expected to lay down its arms when the Cyph's were letting off bombs in the middle of the Old City? I will admit that since that time, Zion command has authorized a number of direct attacks on Agents and the like, but, seriously, you can't kill Agents! (Overall, I think our commands response to this situation has been stupid. Yes we need to secure personnel and information, but blatant hostilities are foolish.)

Clearly, I think there are some key issues here: ignorance, stubborness, and stupidity. I am going to go out on a limb and say the following:

Since there were never clear terms, THERE NEVER WAS A TRUCE! There was a Cease Fire. The Machines have ended it, and have seemed intent on doing so for quite some time. So if anyone in Command from either Org would like to correct me here, stating when and in what means the Truce was actually defined, Please do so!

Till then, I remain sadly dissapointed in the Diplomatic skill being (not) demonstrated on both sides here.

**GamiSB** · 11/14/2007 21:52:06

1.a) What is the population of the Matrix?

300 Million. The Merv recently did alot of digging to discover how much energy the pods are really sending out and 300 million was the number of humans within the pods they determined.

1.b) Why is New Zion a threat?

The terms of the truce was that Zion was allowed to free the one percent without fear of being attacked. Zion's vunerablity was the Machine's way of controling Zion and makeing sure they stuck to it. With the creation of New Zion that control was eliminated and it was feared that because New Zion was a safer area then the old city that Zion would not stick to just the 1% but free who ever they could.

2) Neo was the only one that could defeat Smith. That was his chip

3) The Machine was in control of the Cypherite organization. It used them to spy on Zion and hinder recruiting done by Zion. Did this violate the truce? Yes indirectly it does but sadly they used one of the many loop holes in the truce to get away with it. Same with rewriteing Zion operitves. Also you have to look at the position Zion was in up untill New Zion came along. If war had broken out sooner the city would have been long gone years ago.

4) None, the Machine saw the building of New Zion as a potential threat and under the assumption that Zion would not stick to its end of the truce, it was called off.

**Vesuveus**

GamiSB wrote:

1.a) What is the population of the Matrix?
300 Million. The Merv recently did alot of digging to discover how much energy the pods are really sending out and 300 million was the number of humans within the pods they determined.
1.b) Why is New Zion a threat?

The terms of the truce was that Zion was allowed to free the one percent without fear of being attacked. Zion's vunerablity was the Machine's way of controling Zion and makeing sure they stuck to it. With the creation of New Zion that control was eliminated and it was feared that because New Zion was a safer area then the old city that Zion would not stick to just the 1% but free who ever they could.
2) Neo was the only one that could defeat Smith. That was his chip

3) The Machine was in control of the Cypherite organization. It used them to spy on Zion and hinder recruiting done by Zion. Did this violate the truce? Yes indirectly it does but sadly they used one of the many loop holes in the truce to get away with it. Same with rewriteing Zion operitves. Also you have to look at the position Zion was in up untill New Zion came along. If war had broken out sooner the city would have been long gone years ago.
4) None, the Machine saw the building of New Zion as a potential threat and under the assumption that Zion would not stick to its end of the truce, it was called off.

QFT

Though, I have a different interpretation on #2.

Neo's power comes from the Source, induced by the machines. (Each One chosen for their high level of intuition and deviance.) The difference between Neo and the other One's; Oracle's guidance, code in Oracle's cookies, Trinity? They said the path of the One was made by the many, so it could be a permutation of all these things and all Zionites around Neo.

Smith was 'freed' from the system, too. Therefore he was no longer bound by the rules of the system. This allowed him to 'balance the equation' as he was Neo's negative, as Oracle said.

That's my take on it.

I'd like to hear the opinion of a machinist for #4, though.

**psilody**

GamiSB,

My question is still whether this is all direct information, or merely speculation.

1) I am aware of this figure and the Merovingian's research, but this is not conclusively the population of the Matrix. It might be a good estimate, in which case Zion would have to have liberated 3 MILLION PEOPLE. I am still extremely dubious that we have come anywhere near that. (Prior to the truce, Zions population was roughly 250,000 people, after 100 years of Awakenings, and live births in Zion, which in fact probably made up the bulk of the population. Even assuming a very high mortality rate, it is highly unlikely that Zion had extracted even half that number. Could we really have been awakening 3 million per year over the last 3 years, or even 1 million?that seems almost laughable)

Again, my main point here is without direct clarification of the Matrix population, and a defined yearly quota. This is not truly a Term. You cannot follow a guideline without knowing its details.

Also, it does seem likely that the Smith program had something to do with the Truce. Operatives such as Niobe, Ghost and Morpheus, and their Operators reported very unusual activity from this program in the final hours before the truce.

Again, however, I am looking for explicit confirmation from the Machines. What exactly did Neo negotiate?I have still not seen anyone verify where they derived their information on this, nor whether such information was provided to Zion command in establishing the truce

2) Without fear of being attacked by who? The Machines? what about the Cypherites?

And again, was that spelled out in writing to Zion command?

Vesuveus,

Those are indeed some interesting ideas. I was not aware of these conversations with the Oracle, I would like to know more about who had them and when.((Of course i know the answer to this but I am attempting to RP this thread. In character neither I nor you were present at Neo's last interview with the Oracle, nor is there any In Movie evidence that he told anyone else its details. I could spend days discussiing the apparent answers to these questions OOC, but I really think that would belong in another thread, on some other board. I am explicitly attempting here to play an In Character response to the present situation in the Storyline))

**PS10N** · 11/16/2007 13:09:53

For many of us, there was never any real Truce, it was all just another lie used as an attempt at reestablishing Machine control. After all, Zion had no representation or input on the Truce, it was concocted by two Machine Programs and shoved down our throats as a way to attempt to keep us from being truly free and safe. The lie that was called the Truce served one important purpose: it allowed the last of the free humanity to get out from under the killing sights of the Machines. With his life, Neo bought us the time to get safe, and that was all his sacrifice bought, even though he implicitly said his terms were "peace," the Machines still resumed their waring nature as soon as it was clear that we would not submit to their absolute control again. The Mechanicals are hard-wired and hard-coded to control humans and their own kind. Anyone, human or program, who defies their control is scheduled for deletion. They can't help it and they can't change. As a human or even as one of their own kind, you have one choice: be controlled or rebel against their control. They have no concept of true, equal peace. To a Mechanical, peace simply means the condition when humans are under control. Which is why, in their warped and twisted "logic," being free and safe is "an un-peaceful act" which "violated the Truce." Bottom line: there was no real Truce. The humans used it as an opportunity to become truly free of Machine genocide, and the Machines tried to use it as another failed attempt at Control.

(((P.S. To avoid any bias against others, I read only the original post in the thread before writing my reply. Now that I've read most of the above posts, Psilody, what you said four posts up is pure genius. What we said, you dis-passionately and I passionately is, there never was really a truce, only a cease fire under false pretenses. Spot-on and insightful commentary by Vesuveus and GamiSB, too! /thumbsup)

**Garu**

Vesuveus wrote:

Question # 4
What hostilities did Zion need to stop at the time the Truce ended?
Was having a New Zion regarded as hostilities?
How could Zion be expected to lay down its arms when the Cyph's were letting off bombs in the middle of the Old City?
I'd like to hear the opinion of a machinist for #4, though.

4a) Up until New Zion was revealed there was only a suspicision brought about by intelligence reports. With the exception of various problems originating from Zion (Anome, Morpheus & Assisting the General) they had remained fairly compliant.

4b) Yes. New Zion introduced an unknown that the Machines could not calculate. With absolutely no knowledge of its defensive/offensive capabilities, it was deemed a direct violation of the Truce in that there was no longer a means of regulating the number of awakenings Zion was permitted.

4c) The raid on Old Zion was authorized when it became clear that Zion was working diligently to relocate their entire population and had no intentions of laying down their arms.

**GamiSB** · 11/16/2007 14:02:49

1) One, three and four are not speculation they are proven fact. two who really knows but from what we do know that is the most logical conclusion.

The reason Zion hasn't reached 3 million is because we are still freeing people. We are no where near removeing all the potentials form the system. Also like the Matrix you have to account for birth and death rate. For every freeborn born their is one that dies and a redpills life is alot shorter now thanks to war.

2) The Machine. The truce was between Zion and the Machine and yes Zion knew that their end of the deal was only the 1%. It was one of the reasons they disowned EPN at the start.

**Vesuveus**

psilody wrote:

Vesuveus,
Those are indeed some interesting ideas. I was not aware of these conversations with the Oracle, I would like to know more about who had them and when.((Of course i know the answer to this but I am attempting to RP this thread. In character neither I nor you were present at Neo's last interview with the Oracle, nor is there any In Movie evidence that he told anyone else its details. I could spend days discussiing the apparent answers to these questions OOC, but I really think that would belong in another thread, on some other board. I am explicitly attempting here to play an In Character response to the present situation in the Storyline))

((Hmm. IC I always attributed the knowledge we have as archival footage taken by the Neb's operators and minutes from the Counsel meetings. I'll get back to you with an IC explaination.))

Garu wrote:

4b) Yes. New Zion introduced an unknown that the Machines could not calculate. With absolutely no knowledge of its defensive/offensive capabilities, it was deemed a direct violation of the Truce in that there was no longer a means of regulating the number of awakenings Zion was permitted.
4c) The raid on Old Zion was authorized when it became clear that Zion was working diligently to relocate their entire population and had no intentions of laying down their arms.

See, I have major problems with this:

4b. No regulations were ever given. So why would this be a problem?

4c. No intention of laying down arms? Are you F kidding me? ((IC, of course.)) With half a million sentinels circling Zion's gates, where was the Machine's effort in laying down arms?

The arguement is null now that the Truce failed, but these are reasons why I chose EPN over the Machines when I left Zion. And I heavily considered both.

**Neoteny**

I'd like to raise the point of weaponry and defensive technologies. Obviously the Machines never disarmed. Matter of fact, it even seems like they've kept the warfactory going at a good, steady pace. 500,000 Sentinels poised to strike outside of Zion and growing since the formation of the Truce - great disarmerment. But another point to be made, perhaps one more interesting to the Machinist crowd, is that Zion never disarmed either, not even during the Truce.

Points:

1. Every Zion hovercraft is equipped with an EMP. Always have been, always will be. Even ships built during the Truce were outfitted with an EMP device. What reason would they have to believe that they could not continue to use these in a passive, defensive style, such as the mines laying outside of New Zion?

2. The Gates of Zion were never opened. We had peace, but the gates were never opened, the city never stripped of its greatest defense. This was never seen as a breach of the Truce.

3. APUs and defensive weaponry were never banned from Zion, thought it was obviously well-known that Zion had them, since they were used in the final battle before the Truce. What reason would Zion have to believe that they could not maintain such equipment at this site or another?

Therefore, how should any Zionite have seen pre-existing technology still in use being applied to a new situation as any breach of the Truce? How should any Machine see this as a breach of the Truce?

**Croesis**

Neoteny wrote:

I'd like to raise the point of weaponry and defensive technologies. Obviously the Machines never disarmed. Matter of fact, it even seems like they've kept the warfactory going at a good, steady pace. 500,000 Sentinels poised to strike outside of Zion and growing since the formation of the Truce - great disarmerment. But another point to be made, perhaps one more interesting to the Machinist crowd, is that Zion never disarmed either, not even during the Truce.
Points:
1. Every Zion hovercraft is equipped with an EMP. Always have been, always will be. Even ships built during the Truce were outfitted with an EMP device. What reason would they have to believe that they could not continue to use these in a passive, defensive style, such as the mines laying outside of New Zion?
2. The Gates of Zion were never opened. We had peace, but the gates were never opened, the city never stripped of its greatest defense. This was never seen as a breach of the Truce.
3. APUs and defensive weaponry were never banned from Zion, thought it was obviously well-known that Zion had them, since they were used in the final battle before the Truce. What reason would Zion have to believe that they could not maintain such equipment at this site or another?
Therefore, how should any Zionite have seen pre-existing technology still in use being applied to a new situation as any breach of the Truce? How should any Machine see this as a breach of the Truce?

You're equipment was not arranged in the same way in old Zion as it is in New Zion. There was no embedded EMP's surrounding the entrance. If there were, as soon as the first went off it would have knocked out your defences. APU can be attributed to a loss of a lot of Sentinels but they were overrun in the end, same with your gun turrets. The Machines didn't attack Zion before the termination of the truce because they knew that, while your defences were good, they were not impenetrable. However the bright sparks who designed the defences of New Zion managed to make a way of mining the entrance in a way that EMP's could protect the entrance for an extended time... possibly continuously. It was not the weaponry that concerned them... it is the accessibility and function of the New city that concerned them.