Let's talk spy......

Tenshi · 11/02/2006 18:51:34

Bayamo wrote:

I love how one topic turns into accusations of "this game is dying because...."

And Tenshi, if you haven't tested MKT or hacker for yourself, no offense, but you have no business taking sides on an issue which a) you have no experience with, and b) both sides have presented evidence for.

I am merely commenting on the fact that it seems this guy has actually done research, crunching numbers etc. whereas most of the other comments are just "well I pwn and you dont, haha." I apologize if it seemed I was taking sides, I have just watched this argument turn into a buncha people not knowing what they are talking about looking to score forum CQs SMILEY

. I am sure there are well-educated opposing viewpoints as well...

And I have given both trees a spin, but i wouldn't say I know anything about either...especially since I have logged 18 days worth of time as a gunman and still don't consider myself close to an expert by any means...

**9mmfu**

Please see my comments here.

Xiose

Jilted1 wrote:

Xiose wrote:
dude man seriosuly your not good at this game

you dont know the system

just stop

whatever

LMFAO, this is where you hope I get angry and start popping off at the mouth with smart *CENSORED* comments, not unlike yourself. However, I'm a bit more mature and more intelligent than that, obviously.
It stands to reason that you are actually speaking of yourself with the above comments. It's ok though there is still hope for you. Just keep this in mind Talent+Practice=Skill, that should get you started kiddo.
Oh! wait, back on topic, MKT and all. There is still something not quite right about this loadout, despite your personal opinion of my skill. Once again you show your ignorance by attacking me personally and side-steping the issue at hand.

i guess im a kid now

dangit

**Pylat**

Its no risk to punt people, *CENSORED* are you talking about?

If you miss, spam knives until they die OR spam a few knives, roll out, spam knives until they die.

I'll keep pointing this out. With MA stats I would load punt and nekkid punt a zerg, never missed, always got around 1000+ damage. Punt is a win win situation, you can hit them for an absurd amount of damage, or you can miss them and start spamming knives until they are dead. How is that bad? I would create an MA hybrid with Suplex, FAR easier to kill a member of the zerg by sneak attacking them then spamming specials then by just running at their shield and getting shot/stabbed/punched/hacked 50 times before you even can IL someone. Sneak attacks are the icing on the cake for MKT's, they make them just THAT much better. I'm not saying remove sneak attacks, keep them in by all means, but an MKT can also pwn you just by spamming knives, but they also can pwn you with punt. They are extremely effective no matter the situation they are put into.

EVERY tree has a disadvantage of some sort. MA's are the definition of suck outside of IL. Gunmen are pretty handy in or out of IL but can't be amazing at both. Snipers are at a disadvantage in IL (In general, some builds can be good in IL). Hackers can use great AoE hax but then suck in IL, or they can be good in IL but miss out on the AoE hax. EVERY other tree has to make sacrifices to be effective in some situations, MKT have all the resources they need to kick the *poop* out of you no matter what the situation is, they can rip you a new arsehole in IL, they can rip you a new arsehole out of IL, they can rip you a new arsehole if you are part of a zerg cause they have sneak attacks.

Saying gunmen will fair well against MKT's is also wrong, last I knew Thrown Resistance Bonuses don't work, so activating Calm Mind Calm Body will only give you +75 thrown resist, regardless of what your stats are.\

Every tree should have a disadvantage, but MKT doesn't, end of story, thats why they are so effective cause you can never get them on the back foot.

Xiose

Arcanoloth wrote:

Every tree should have a disadvantage, but MKT doesn't, end of story, thats why they are so effective cause you can never get them on the back foot.

oh we dont?

what about are serious issue of No IS?

But you know everything continue on.

The Leo

9mmfu wrote:

Please see my comments here.

WOHOO
My dream came true. Ahhhhhh

CrazyJun · 11/03/2006 09:57:01

The Leo wrote:

9mmfu wrote:
Please see my comments here.
WOHOO
My dream came true. Ahhhhhh

You better wake up. Or is it that what you really want that the less dev ressources MxO have, spent on reviewing each tree and TRY to make it balanced. There will be always a tree that seems to be unbalanced in the one or other way. IMO the devs should concentrate on the REAL issues the game have - fixing bugs (one of these bugs is e.g. that you can do the same special twice without resuse timer and this is not a spy only problem), working on org balance (e.g. give the zerg a accuracy downgrade) and last but not least content, content and .... guess what ..... content. Since this game was released in 2005 I heard people complaining about Hackers, Riflemen and MKTs. Then CR2 came, some peeps say it's great some peeps think it was wasted dev time. Some weeks later the complaining about several trees started again. At this time MKT was overpowered and the devs tweaked it twice, cause the 1st "fix" made this tree nearly useless. Now everybody is crying again for a nerf. This time it's MKT, then rifleman, in a few weeks i guess it's hacker, then MA and in 1/2 year everybody thinks Tool Maker is overpowered.
As I see lots of threads about the "MKT is soooo overpowered" I started to have a look at this tree again and dueled gunmen and MAs. I'm not a "full time"-MKT, but I know how the system works. For the MA duels, I had IS problems most of the time (the MA had a resi close to 200) and with aikido + block he blocked maybe 30% of my sneak attacks and maybe 30%-40% of my knives out of IL missed him. My dmg was between 200-300 each knife (compared to a sky-highsidekick + EFK combo = 1200 dmg without MA prowess).
If the gunmen can keep you away from IL you're dead really quick. If you can IL them it's a 75% to 25% chance that you can win.

I know that PvP is totally different compared to duels. In PvP you have to think about the factor consumables and zerg.
For the zerg problem, there are lots of threads talking about it and lots of good ideas, but honestly I don't think we'll see one of them and have to live with the zerg factor.
If the MKT uses a TB he'll get a nice accuracy boost and it's easier to hit. For this I have following idea. We can boost our accuracy, so what's about a defense boost as well. They work similar to the TBs and boost one of your defense abs (e.g. ballistic defense boost). You can't use 2 defense booster at the same time. Just a thought to stop lots this "tree xyz is overpowered, nerf it" threads and I think this can be done in a reasonable dev time.

peace,
CJ

Edit:

Tarrega wrote:

Try ditching your trusty "30 30 dump" stat routine and mixing it up a bit.

quote for d@mn f***ing truth

**Pylat**

Xiose wrote:

Arcanoloth wrote:

Every tree should have a disadvantage, but MKT doesn't, end of story, thats why they are so effective cause you can never get them on the back foot.

oh we dont?

what about are serious issue of No IS?

But you know everything continue on.

You don't run out of IS, stop kidding yourself. Most of your knives are 10-20 IS. You can throw them like a free fire attack and not care at all about IS. Besides, running out of IS is a problem for ALL trees, every tree is considered boned if they run out of IS. I'm talking a specific disadvantage for MKT's.

Eg
MA = *CENSORED* when not in IL
Hacker = *CENSORED* when in IL
Snipers = *CENSORED* when in IL
Duelist/SMG specialist = Flexible enough to handle themselves in IL or out of IL but not the pwn of either.
Ballista = Good when in IL but not nearly as effective as a Howie/Destroyer out of IL.
MKT = Pwn no matter where they are

**Bayamos**

MA: Bad outside of IL, but dodge most knives unless on speed and boosted. A good MA can kill a MKT in IL unless the MKT gets a sneak attack in. MKTs have no "instant damage" like Skyhigh/EFK aside from Sneak attacks, which are able to be blocked. You can't always tell when your opponent is about to use EFK in IL.

MKT: Good outside of IL against Gunmen, and the occasional MA.

Hackers: Destroy MKTs outside of IL. Very good in IL as well.

Snipers: Fine in IL if you make a loadout that differs from the standard 30 30 Sniper Rifleman combo. Of course they die to MKT though, they're supposed to.

Also your comment about "so what if they run out of IS" really seems to ignore the fact that Gunmen and MA have free fire... MKTs have to settle for a no-dmg standard attack in IL, or switching styles to use a gun, with which they have very little accuracy.

Xiose

Bayamo wrote:

MA: Bad outside of IL, but dodge most knives unless on speed and boosted. A good MA can kill a MKT in IL unless the MKT gets a sneak attack in. MKTs have no "instant damage" like Skyhigh/EFK aside from Sneak attacks, which are able to be blocked. You can't always tell when your opponent is about to use EFK in IL.

MKT: Good outside of IL against Gunmen, and the occasional MA.

Hackers: Destroy MKTs outside of IL. Very good in IL as well.

Snipers: Fine in IL if you make a loadout that differs from the standard 30 30 Sniper Rifleman combo. Of course they die to MKT though, they're supposed to.

Also your comment about "so what if they run out of IS" really seems to ignore the fact that Gunmen and MA have free fire... MKTs have to settle for a no-dmg standard attack in IL, or switching styles to use a gun, with which they have very little accuracy.

QFT

Did i just agree with bayamos....

**Pylat**

Bayamo wrote:

MA: Bad outside of IL, but dodge most knives unless on speed and boosted. A good MA can kill a MKT in IL unless the MKT gets a sneak attack in. MKTs have no "instant damage" like Skyhigh/EFK aside from Sneak attacks, which are able to be blocked. You can't always tell when your opponent is about to use EFK in IL.

MKT: Good outside of IL against Gunmen, and the occasional MA.

Hackers: Destroy MKTs outside of IL. Very good in IL as well.

Snipers: Fine in IL if you make a loadout that differs from the standard 30 30 Sniper Rifleman combo. Of course they die to MKT though, they're supposed to.

Also your comment about "so what if they run out of IS" really seems to ignore the fact that Gunmen and MA have free fire... MKTs have to settle for a no-dmg standard attack in IL, or switching styles to use a gun, with which they have very little accuracy.

MA: Don't dodge most knives, you know an MA will EFK you cause they will hit you with a sky high before hand, unless they are a complete noob that is SMILEY

.

MKT: Maul Gunmen out of IL and Maul MA's out of IL, MA's are completely useless out of IL. MA's are also rather lucky to get into IL with an MKT with half their health still intact.

Snipers: Fine in IL, but not nearly as effective as a pure duelist/SMG specialist load.

Hackers: Maul MKT's out of IL (Never denied this), only effective in IL if they tailor make their build to do so, and in tailoring their build to be good in IL they sacrifice a lot of their effectiveness outside of IL cause they will miss out on lots of good AoE hax.

You say MKT's have no free fire, so instead knives have a low IS cost. This has given MKT's a knife free fire which nearly always hits and has great debuffs. So instead MKT's get a "Free Fire" attack which does more dmg than gunmen or MA's and also debuffs you, quite badly in some cases.

You missed my point entirely. EVERY other tree has to sacrifice some aspect so they can be more effective in some circumstances than others. MKT's don't have to do this, they can be highly effective in any circumstance at any time no matter the odds. If you want me to clarify this to you again I will do so happily.

**ROLLTIDE**

This is one of the funniest discussions ever, shut up and find a way to defend it instead of crying about it.

**Dagonet** · 11/06/2006 18:15:03

Well you see the same thing in politics, the people who are the loudest are the people who have a problem. In my opinion you need to keep spy as strong as it is so that they can keep the gunmen in check. That said, I would like to see more people pick up hacker to keep the mkt's in check. Right now hackers are very low in population (not counting coders :-p) and could be a large contributing factor to why "mkt's pwn"

I suppose the only way to make hacker more attractive would be to make it deadlier, which I'm sure would upset people just as much as mkt's do now.

The classes that are perfectly balanced are the awakened and all the ability maker trees. ^_^

I say nerf data miner.

Ingus · 11/06/2006 23:12:22

Tarrega wrote:

Jilted1 wrote:
So please, please, please stop making ignorant, subjective remarks. You are only making the problem worse and prolonging the enevitable. We already have scores of players leaving every week, and those of us that have patiently been waiting for this game to be finished are really starting to get fed up. I've seen the numbers dwindle over the years, slowly but surely this game is dying, and you are not part of the solution.

I'm not sure if this was referring to my post (please disreagard if it wasn't), but I didn't feel it was ignorant or subjective at all. Stats are a huge factor, and the "30 30 dump" just dosn't make for an all around good PvP load. I never claimed for it to be an end all solution, but I personally find it much more effective against all classes, mkt included, to use less conventional stats.

-SP

Agreed.

30/30 stats = Pure loadouts for DUELING.

Spreading out your stats benefit you more in pvp.

For example:

1.A 30/30 Pure MA duels another 30/30 MA = May the best man win.

2.A 30/30 Pure MA duels a 30/30 Pure Duelist = The duelist will generally outroll the MA but not do great damage because MAs max BELIEF and FOCUS. FOCUS gives Ballistic resistance. Pure Duelist have maxed PERCEPTION and FOCUS. Their maxed focus gives them MELEE DEFENSE.

A Pure MA with maxed BELIEF & FOCUS leaves them with no good base stats to put into PERCEPTION to give them BALLISTIC DEFENSE. The ma cant survive like this even with hyper dodge and ballistic buff clothes. That's why Duelist tear so many MAs apart... the 30/30 MA lacks the ballistic defense to contend competitively.

Some players can overcome duelist with 30/30 stats by debuffing them with specials... breaking them down etc... but the general crowd can't.

MKTS do need tinkering here and there but THE REASON THEY ROLL OVER EVERY TREE is:

LACK OF HACKERS (HACKERS ARE MKT's Achilles heel)

30/30 PURE MAs and 30/30 Gunmen running around mara pvping are wide open to MKTS because the 30/30 MA and the 30/30 Gunmen don't need to put their points into REASON which gives THROWN DEFENSE.

In the end... pure stats are good for duels depend on what your facing but at the same time they can be our own worst enemy on the pvp front since there aren't enough hackers to hold mkts in check and with all the PURE Gunmen and MAs running with no points in REASON FOR THROWN DEFENSE MKTERS are taking FULL ADVANTAGE OF THIS.

Now, think of the outcome of things if pvpers not of the MKT tree decided to throw points into REASON for thrown defense and see the outcome SMILEY

So in closing:

MKTS racking up kills it's not all skill SMILEY

It's just the luck fighting so many gunmen and martial artists that dont rely on thrown defense. Notice how much more difficult it can be when an MKT fights another MKT? SMILEY

Duelist that are so use to beating MAs it's mainly because the MAs are NOT depending on PERCEPTION points to get ballistic defense.

Once the community takes full notice of this and the level of play evolves, you'll see MKTs and Duelist having more challenging days vs other trees that they normally dominate due to everyone using 30/30 stats SMILEY

It's a difficult way of life for an MA in pvp cr2 but the more you guys stop thinking like a bunch of Ken and Ryus and more like some Jackie Chans and Jet Lis, things will get a bit better SMILEY

**Pylat**

Before I turned into a hacker (YES I AM TRYING TO SOLVE THIS AS A HACKER) I used Aikido GM with a reason of 20, just for the thrown defense. I would have Aikido style, hyper sense and a reasonably good reason (hehe, bad pun), but MKT's still rolled over me. Why? Cause even with those stats my thrown defense was still *poop* compared to an MKT's accuracy.

I have a reason of 30 as a hacker, even when I use block tactics when I get IL'd they hit me half the time. Their accuracy is simply FAR too high for any tree to hope to counter, except an Aikido GM with a reason of 30. Right now even hackers have a 50/50 success ratio against them, the better hackers might be 75/25 but its still not nearly as good as you could hope. I hit MKT's with UI lag 2.0 (Thrown acc -20) and they still spam knives against my thrown defense of +140 and hit me all the time. I hit them with inefficiency field 2.0 (IS cost reduction -50%, IS regen rate -100%) and for the entire 30 seconds that it affects them they spam knives without fail and when the duration ends they keep spamming, I have never NEVER seen an MKT run out of IS unless they were heavily debuffed (Destroy resolve is the only thing that can do this).

Their sneak attacks are pretty stupid aswell, they just run around in combat waiting to find someone with no shield to punt, they only need a disguise on to do this so they can run around easily, even worse is when they do this as blues. So what we have is an invulnerable person running around combat that you are COMPLETELY incapable of stopping waiting for your shield to be busted so they can punt you for 1000+ dmg. Or they can run around in a disguise waiting for the staggering throw symbol to light up, they click that and 3 seconds later someone is sans 800 health. How is that fair? I say remove disguises from the sneak attack abilities, they actually should be in sneak. That way it is a challenge to punt someone, and the absurd amount of damage is your fair reward for the skill required. They can keep their effectiveness with knives for all I care as long as sneak attacks are harder to get, or you can nerf knives but leave sneak attacks as they are. Cause right now those are HUGE advantages for them and one should be removed.

Its funny that the people saying its balanced are the MKT's in the community, they desperately don't want to lose the absurd power they have by loading up that noob of a tree. (Yes, I am blanketing you all under one generalisation, just like Dagonet did)

((No, I did not mean that last statement, just wanted to point out how stupid Dagonet's comment can sound))