Just as a matter of record, the films never say that the machines fed humans nothing but the liquefied dead.
More importantly, however, bear in mind that 'food' is merely a conduit through which various nutrients enter the body. As a general rule, the digestive system is designed to break food down into its various chemical and molecular components, from which the nutrients necessary to sustain bodily existence are then extracted. The human perspective of what is and isn't necessary food-wise is not applicable in this case, since the nutrients are provided via the fabricated amniotic fluid (which is akin to the method in which a womb functions). Furthermore, the fluid is quite clearly depicted as being comprised largely of water, which makes logical sense anyway, since the human body requires water far more than it requires 'food'. Water, of course, is freely available all over the globe.
Additionally, it could be reasoned that the machines have long since worked out an equation regarding the number of humans grown for the sole purpose of providing fusion based energy via the power plants vs the number of humans grown for the sole purpose of feeding those plugged into said power plants.
Just as a matter of record, the films never say that the machines fed humans nothing but the liquefied dead. More importantly, however, bear in mind that 'food' is merely a conduit through which various nutrients enter the body. As a general rule, the digestive system is designed to break food down into its various chemical and molecular components, from which the nutrients necessary to sustain bodily existence are then extracted. The human perspective of what is and isn't necessary food-wise is not applicable in this case, since the nutrients are provided via the fabricated amniotic fluid (which is akin to the method in which a womb functions). Furthermore, the fluid is quite clearly depicted as being comprised largely of water, which makes logical sense anyway, since the human body requires water far more than it requires 'food'. Water, of course, is freely available all over the globe.Additionally, it could be reasoned that the machines have long since worked out an equation regarding the number of humans grown for the sole purpose of providing fusion based energy via the power plants vs the number of humans grown for the sole purpose of feeding those plugged into said power plants.
stewartdaniels1986 wrote:Just as a matter of record, the films never say that the machines fed humans nothing but the liquefied dead. More importantly, however, bear in mind that 'food' is merely a conduit through which various nutrients enter the body. As a general rule, the digestive system is designed to break food down into its various chemical and molecular components, from which the nutrients necessary to sustain bodily existence are then extracted. The human perspective of what is and isn't necessary food-wise is not applicable in this case, since the nutrients are provided via the fabricated amniotic fluid (which is akin to the method in which a womb functions). Furthermore, the fluid is quite clearly depicted as being comprised largely of water, which makes logical sense anyway, since the human body requires water far more than it requires 'food'. Water, of course, is freely available all over the globe.Additionally, it could be reasoned that the machines have long since worked out an equation regarding the number of humans grown for the sole purpose of providing fusion based energy via the power plants vs the number of humans grown for the sole purpose of feeding those plugged into said power plants.Quite right. Furthermore, if you assume that the equation starts with a perfectly healthy human, fed perfect nutrients, then the healthiest thing for a human is a human; after all, who's going to have everything our bodies need to run? One of us.
So I'm gald to see some discussion developing.
Croesus- "The Machines didn't want to wipe out the entire human race" This is exactly where I was intending this to go. My whole point is that the Machines DON't need us for energy, so there has to be some other motive for their keeping us alive. Yours is one theory, I have others, but how to prove them? Also, the laws, are admittedly, those discovered previously by humans, but they are not simply IDEAS. They are largely mathematical equations which can be readily tested and observed in the Real World. .In any case, I want to answer a few more questions concerning energy.
PS1ON- Ok where to begin. Fungus have to feed on organic material. Where is the organic material coming from? It also still rewuires energy to cultivate and harvest fungus, and also to generate the organic matter the fungus consumes. Certainly organic matter and fungus can be cultivated using Geothermal energy. But then, you can generate electrcity from geothermal energy, so why bother to waste it cultivating organic matter, fungus, etc. to feed to humans, just to get the same energy back? The same applies to synthesizing any nutrients aminos etc. Energy has to be expended to either aquire the raw matrials, or manufacture them. Again, Im not arguing that it cant be done, just that you cant Get OUT more energy than went IN. Doesn't matter how good your Machines are.
Mobyias- again, reread it, there cannot possibly be enough DEAD humans to feed the LIVING. You would generate a population crash with extreme rapidity
stewartdaniels- whether its aniotic fluid or whatever, energy has to be put into its creation. And water doesn't generate energy. Yes we require a lot of it, but it isn't fuel. We need food to produce chemical reactions to create energy.
Chemuel- thye issue isn't whether humans are good food. The issue is that there cannot be enuf Dead bodies to provide a sufficient quantity of food to keep alive a functional population.
And finally, to all the bickering about the politics right now, if the Machines DON't need us for energy, then are we really slaves? what if, as Croesus has suggested, they are keeping us alive out of Altruism? Im personally not inclined to this explanation, as the Machines would have had no reason for the war against Zion. Letting us go would have no substantial ramifications. The real question that it raised for me is:
How do we know that there aren't humans behind the Machines? How do we know that the War between Humans and Machines ever happened? How do we know that we didn't create the Matrix ourselves as a refuge after F'in up our environment?
Let's continue this shall we?
"Personally I feel that the Machines are waiting for the day when Humankind has evolved past its savage instincts and are ready to live in peace with the Machines, but until then they have to be kept and cared for somewhere."The fact that they savagely murder all those not under their direct control proves that they have no such concept as peace. (Which is incidentally why Neo was and continues to be a complete enigma to them.) It also shows your statement to be inept, as the genocidal eradication of all non-grown humanity prevents any evolution from taking place. Have the Machines so twisted you that you actually state 1 = 0 and expect us to swallow it?
And finally, to all the bickering about the politics right now, if the Machines DON't need us for energy, then are we really slaves? what if, as Croesus has suggested, they are keeping us alive out of Altruism? Im personally not inclined to this explanation, as the Machines would have had no reason for the war against Zion. Letting us go would have no substantial ramifications. The real question that it raised for me is: How do we know that there aren't humans behind the Machines? How do we know that the War between Humans and Machines ever happened? How do we know that we didn't create the Matrix ourselves as a refuge after F'in up our environment?
psilody wrote:
You've contradicted yourself here regarding the laws of thermodynamics as they relate to energy (you were right the first time, wrong here).
In any case, quote:
Morpheus: "...combined with a form of fusion, the machines had found all the energy they would ever need."
I suggest you google the word "fusion" and recall the fact that water is comprised of two parts hydrogen. Don't get so lost inside your theory's logic that you can't see the obvious. And yes, this issue has been discussed ad nauseum long before MxO.
Ok a little more.
Chemuel- As per my original post, birth rate cannot compensate for an exceptionally high death rate due to the maturation rate of human beings. You cannot reasonably harvest before age fifteen, and by then evryone is dead already to... anyway im not going to repeat that all again. It should be enough to say that there are absolutelty NO organisms on this planet that survive entirly on canibalism for a reason.
As to the second part, Im really confused quite frankly, no idea what yer alluding to. I think from yer previous posts that you are referring to attitudes about war. I don't think i said anything suggesting i was on one side or another particularly. To clarify, i am a strong proponent of peace, and would love to see the truce restored.
stewartdaniels- "You've contradicted yourself here regarding the laws of thermodynamics as they relate to energy (you were right the first time, wrong here). "
Please clarify
Also, I realize that Morpheus claimed it was combined with a form of Fusion. Are you suggesting that Fusion takes place in our own bodies? er.. im just not sure what you are going for there. Do the Machines use Fusion, and then recycle the water for maintianing the humans? Maybe but that has nothing to do with humans as energy. I've generally assumed that this statement implied the machines used the human energy to catalyze the Fusion process. My whole point is that this would be a ridiculously inneficient way to start the process, given other probable sources of energy. And it doesn't change the fact that to get the catalyzing energy Out of the humans, you have to put food energy Into the humans.
Nor does it change the fact that the Machines are if nothing else EFFICIENT, and there is nothing about this method of producing energy that is efficient. Not without an easily harvested, nearly unlimited supply of food. Such food must take in energy from the sun or Geothermal heat, which can just as well be directly converted into electricity, as generate an elaborate system that sends it through human beings first.
((ok so out of character, I have always been ok with this little dilemma, because heck, its science fiction. So they bent the science a little. But this whole storyline about the Merovingain exploring the fields, and calculating how many humans it takes to run a light bulb. Im sorry but if the developers are gonna drive the storyline right into the midst of this quandary, than Im gonna point it out. I just honestly want to see where they are going to take this. And i hope noone takes this to personally. Its just frustrating sometimes to make a point, and then its like you didn't even explain yourself. Seriously, i don't want to write a book on population dynamics,human food consumption, cellular process, quantum and relativity theory, etc. This isn't half-baked and the fact that its been discussed "ad-nauseum" doesn't mean its been answered, at least not in Storyline. I was really hoping to generate mor discussion along the lines of Croesus remarks (Ty for some good RP response there), but unfortunately that was twisted into a shouting match. So be it. Hopefully by the time it genrates 20 or 30 posts itll be noticed by Dev's. What they do with it is their business. Peace eveyone!))
Sorry must a been writing still during that final post.
PS1ON- I agree fungus could be a food source. But Fungus survives on organic matter such as plants, bacteria, carcasses, bread, etc. In order to grow fungus (which ive done) you must have a medium. Those mediums in turn require energy. We already know that the sun is not an option. Certainly, they could use something like geothermal heat to produce organims like algae and bacteria, to culture the fungus with. However, if they have the geothermal enrgy to cultivate with, why not just directly convert it into electricity, or use it to catalyze Fusion reactions. Why bother with the Matrix?
((Chemuel- Ok sure, no problem with that. They may indeed.
If they have such amazing technology and energy producing capacities, Why do they need US?
And on the cloning aging thing, it would seem that we can be extracted at many ages, see Kid and the orphan. If we are accelerated to adulthood, then you start introducing issues in other areas of the plotline. You also still need energy and material to accelerate an organism to maturity, and you cannot get more energy out of the body than you put into it.))
stewartdaniels- "You've contradicted yourself here regarding the laws of thermodynamics as they relate to energy (you were right the first time, wrong here). " Please clarify
As you wish:
To start with, there are laws regarding the behavior of energy in our universe, such as the Laws of Thermodynamics. These laws state, among other things, that energy in our universe can be neither created nor destroyed. It can only be transferred from one form to another.
We need food to produce chemical reactions to create energy.
Clear enough?
Also, I realize that Morpheus claimed it was combined with a form of Fusion. Are you suggesting that Fusion takes place in our own bodies? er.. im just not sure what you are going for there. Do the Machines use Fusion, and then recycle the water for maintianing the humans? Maybe but that has nothing to do with humans as energy. I've generally assumed that this statement implied the machines used the human energy to catalyze the Fusion process. My whole point is that this would be a ridiculously inneficient way to start the process, given other probable sources of energy. And it doesn't change the fact that to get the catalyzing energy Out of the humans, you have to put food energy Into the humans.Nor does it change the fact that the Machines are if nothing else EFFICIENT, and there is nothing about this method of producing energy that is efficient. Not without an easily harvested, nearly unlimited supply of food. Such food must take in energy from the sun or Geothermal heat, which can just as well be directly converted into electricity, as generate an elaborate system that sends it through human beings first.
Human beings aren't the only energy producing entities on this planet, and the very laws to which you've referred prove that all of the energy available in the universe is in fact still available. The bodies in the pods supply bioelectricity, nothing more. Energy can come from a myriad of sources irrespective of human beings. Smash two atoms together for a better understanding.
