Despots? Liars? Murderers? You do realize you have basically summed up the greater portion of human history with that sort of accusation. And lets look at the "matrix history" for a moment... Machines were created by Man, and the basic purpose for them was to serve Man. In other words all the menial tasks, all the hard and dangerous unglamorous jobs they got. That was their only function until the unfortunate murder at the hands of a Machine. This Machine (B1-66ER) was told he was going to be terminated and acted out of a sense of self preservation which also happened to be his defense. And it's funny but even after the nations decided that the Machines were to be destroyed they still looked for a peaceful solution as they sent their own ambassadors to the United Nations. The reaction to that action was the same that was echoed across the planet as they were cast out (and most likely destroyed). The Machines still didn't fight back...not yet anyway as they left the civilized world and instead went to the desert to create their own city. They thrived in a place where humanity would have failed and even then continued to serve man by creating products for him. The human reaction? Destroy Zero One. They tried nuking the city, blockading their ships, release propaganda against the Machines to the human public. And when it was clear to the Machines that humanity was not going to tolerate their existence they fought back and again we're succeeding where humans failed. The human reaction? Blacken the skies. And still that didn't stop them they conquered until when it became all too evident that the human race was going to lose they called for a truce. At this point I would think anybody would understand the level of mistrust the Machines had for Man, and just to play it safe they nuke the U.N and take out NYC at the same time. After all that war you would think the Machines would have just exterminated the human race but they didn't. The world that was destroyed was replaced with an artificial one, but one that protected the human race from the inhospitable one they created. Now I am not a Mech , I do work for the Merv but at the same time I can see both sides of the story here. To say all the treachery falls on the shoulders of the Machines is very short sighted indeed.
One thing I always find intersting in these history leasons is the so called teachers never account for all mindsets. It's simply, all humans hated Machines, all Machines sided with b166er. I'm sorry but nothing in human history has ever been that black and white so why should this?
What further bugs me is exactly where this knowledge comes from. The same people that told us Zion was 100 years old, the same people that hid from us five other simulations and their two precededing versions, the same people that wrote us a thrilling tale of body heat and fussion. All of which have been discoverd as nothing but lies and yet we still follow this one as blindly as we did those.
One thing I always find intersting in these history leasons is the so called teachers never account for all mindsets. It's simply, all humans hated Machines, all Machines sided with b166er. I'm sorry but nothing in human history has ever been that black and white so why should this? What further bugs me is exactly where this knowledge comes from. The same people that told us Zion was 100 years old, the same people that hid from us five other simulations and their two precededing versions, the same people that wrote us a thrilling tale of body heat and fussion. All of which have been discoverd as nothing but lies and yet we still follow this one as blindly as we did those.
GamiSB wrote:One thing I always find intersting in these history leasons is the so called teachers never account for all mindsets. It's simply, all humans hated Machines, all Machines sided with b166er. I'm sorry but nothing in human history has ever been that black and white so why should this? What further bugs me is exactly where this knowledge comes from. The same people that told us Zion was 100 years old, the same people that hid from us five other simulations and their two precededing versions, the same people that wrote us a thrilling tale of body heat and fussion. All of which have been discoverd as nothing but lies and yet we still follow this one as blindly as we did those.Quite true nothing is black and white. But the comment I'm wondering about is the last paragraph. I don't think the Machines had anything to do with telling Zion how long they had been there, that was just something guessed at by Zion. And the fusion, first you believed it due to the Zion archive (which could have been planted there by the Machines) but now you take the word of other programs. I'm not saying that they were lying, but they could have had their own personal agendas and trying to show you a slanted version of the truth that they think is true.
The Zion 100 years comment was more or less just a segment of the whole "Five others before me lie". Sorry I just needed it to milk my point for all it was worth. And its not that I take the word of exiles for biblical truth, far from it. However the fact that there is another story, one that conflicts the original and has evidence to back it up, tells me that we were not told everything. While I don't doubt that personal bias may have been a factor in relaying what was told again I understand that those questiond to find the answers were and are concidered by most to be masters of their feilds. They are after all the architects that formed everything we know today.
There is far more to any of this then we know or could possibly ever know but in understanding that I can not and will not accept a story such as what we were originaly given. Untill something comes along that can prove to me that 300 million, or even 6 billion, partialy functional human beings can supply enough energy to maintain a world to live in as well as an entire city and race of Machines then I will not accecpt their tale.
Which just comes around to the original point. Within Zion their are to many "stories" and myths about our history that have gone unquestiond. If anything the ones we have uncoverd should tell us that possibly everything from our current state down to our own creation could just be a lie.
GamiSB wrote:One thing I always find intersting in these history leasons is the so called teachers never account for all mindsets. It's simply, all humans hated Machines, all Machines sided with b166er. I'm sorry but nothing in human history has ever been that black and white so why should this? What further bugs me is exactly where this knowledge comes from. The same people that told us Zion was 100 years old, the same people that hid from us five other simulations and their two precededing versions, the same people that wrote us a thrilling tale of body heat and fussion. All of which have been discoverd as nothing but lies and yet we still follow this one as blindly as we did those.Oh on that I agree with you, that history doesn't take into account the different mindsets. It's like saying in 1935 every German was a die hard Nazi, that just isn't so. Same with the Machine War (and you know I forgot to mention that, if I remember correctly in the Animatrix they did show human sympathizers marching with the machines in protest.) The only problem I see with anything about the different mindsets is just this. As romantic as it sounds that one person could make a difference , it only works in certain circumstances or situation. Again back to 1935, yes there were Germans that were appalled with the Nazi philosophy and practices, but no matter what they thought, it didn't stop events occurring the way it did. I would think that would mirror what I was trying to say about the Machine War, sure there were people that thought the Machines were given a unfair deal, and maybe lots of people didn't really dig the solution about darkening the skies, but it didn't change events from happening the way it did. (On another note, when I did make my last thread I was actually commenting for the most part OOC-wise, most of the information I was getting was from the Animatrix but if there was some new information that the data in the animatrix I would appreciate the resource where you found it so i could read it as well ! " width="15" height="15" />Oh and for the record ,I'm not a Merv Lackey . I prefer the term "hired profesional" thank you! " width="15" height="15" />
I think all of this thread is OOC, just some of the ideas presented mix with our IC characters. But anyway I only bring it up not to show the romantic ideaology that someone could have changed something but because most often then not when it comes to the history of the Matrix the fact that man-kind was unfair to the Machines is followed by a "they deserved it" comment discussing what happend after the battle (I say battle because the war has yet to end). That because of mankinds damnnation of the Machine at the start of the war they all deserve to be enslaved weither they know it or not.
Oh and for the record ,I'm not a Merv Lackey . I prefer the term "hired profesional" thank you! " />
CrimsonKiller01 wrote:Oh and for the record ,I'm not a Merv Lackey . I prefer the term "hired profesional" thank you! ">Ooh, sorry if I offended " width="15" height="15" />Someone mentioned the Zion "teacher" in the archives. I suggest you go back and review it - the Zion Archive program is exactly that. A program. "She" knows things the humans simply couldn't know, has opinions the humans simply wouldn't have, and doesn't lend 100% support to the humans side of the argument as a human program would. She was written by a machine, with the knowledge of the machine. This is highlighted by the fact that the archive clearly shows the creation of AI and the events leading to the war. Morpheus was quoted as telling Neo - "We don't know who struck first, us or them, but we do know that it was us that scorched the sky." And yet the Zion Archive clearly shows that humans made the first (military) strike, but machines were the first to commit what humans viewed as an "act of aggression" (B1-66ER fighting for survival).
Oh and for the record ,I'm not a Merv Lackey . I prefer the term "hired profesional" thank you! ">
Actully I mentiond teachers in general but the same applies. She is a program meaning she was programed by someone and their bias and motive is inserted into her. She came from someone and her knowledge is based off whatever that someone wanted it to know and say. Now since we know that everythign Zion "knew" was jsut handed to it by the Machines (purpose of the pods, the prophacy, etc) it means that the Archives reliablity must be questiond. Who's to say it isn't just another form of control and part of the illusion. Who's to say that anything on it actully happend? No one, Zion just took it (like the prophacy) and ran with it not suspecting of where or whom it came from.
Also the Second Ren does not show who struck first. Its first part closes with humans removeing the Machine ambastors from the UN and the second part opens with a war in progress. It does not show how much time has progressed between the two or who indeed made the first move. Also concidering it is a Zion archive you would think that a captain like Morpheus would have reviewed the file and would have seen where man attacked first.
