This isn't 1999.

**PS10N**

Looking for a pro- and an-tagonist, you've fallen in the pitfall of Manachian polarization, the illusion that is duality.

**GoDGiVeR**

PS10N wrote:

Looking for a pro- and an-tagonist, you've fallen in the pitfall of Manachian polarization, the illusion that is duality.

... er ... ok.

**ShiXinFeng**

PS10N wrote:

Looking for a pro- and an-tagonist, you've fallen in the pitfall of Manachian polarization, the illusion that is duality.

Not I, my friend. That debate about this story precedes my involvement by several years.

But, for the sake of argument, let's put the philisophical aside (I know, dichotomic, at best.). The story of the Matrix has, heretofore, demanded a protagonist and, conversely, an antagonist.

Who has assumed these roles in today's story?

**Zerotolerance**

PS10N wrote:

Looking for a pro- and an-tagonist, you've fallen in the pitfall of Manachian polarization, the illusion that is duality.

That hardly made any sense, actually.

Duality in science is real. Duality in the mind/body is something that is up for debate - some believe that one can be controlled by the other.

Spiritual duality is also up for debate and I think that's the one you're referring to. Those who believe that if good exists there must also be evil, and vice-versa. Although you don't necessarily need to look at it from a spiritual standpoint, to some degree there is truth behind the concept of duality. Perceiving it to be false, rejecting it entirely for its core meaning, is a rather inexperienced conclusion. There's a balance of good and evil, positive and negative, compassion and hatred, in the world and within each and every person. Some are simply imbalanced. Although you can also view things as subjective, there's many moral concepts that anyone can embrace that have little or nothing to do with spiritual duality.

Some have a capacity to be wreckless.
Some are mindful of the world around them.
Both have varying capacities within the individual.

**PS10N**

Zerotolerance wrote:

That hardly made any sense, actually.

Duality in science is real. Duality in the mind/body is something that is up for debate - some believe that one can be controlled by the other.

Spiritual duality is also up for debate and I think that's the one you're referring to. Those who believe that if good exists there must also be evil, and vice-versa. Although you don't necessarily need to look at it from a spiritual standpoint, to some degree there is truth behind the concept of duality. Perceiving it to be false, rejecting it entirely for its core meaning, is a rather inexperienced conclusion. There's a balance of good and evil, positive and negative, compassion and hatred, in the world and within each and every person. Some are simply imbalanced. Although you can also view things as subjective, there's many moral concepts that anyone can embrace that have little or nothing to do with spiritual duality.

Some have a capacity to be wreckless.
Some are mindful of the world around them.
Both have varying capacities within the individual.

Didn't make sense to whom? I'm sorry that you didn't understand. The philosophers commentary on The Ultimate Matrix Collection 10 DVD set talks rather extensively about Manachian duality, pitfalls of polarization and illusory duality. i.e. the mistake of thinking Humans/Zion=Good, Machines/Matrix=Bad; which one might think from watching the original movie but cannot continue in Reloaded when the Oracle is revealed as a Machine program. If a story has a clear "good protagonist vs. evil antagonist," then it is Manachian and polar, a duality in conflict. If the characters do not line up on opposite sides of a definite line but are rather shades of gray, one must look beyond simple Manachian duality to provide a philosophical context.

The "inexperienced conclusion" comment made me chuckle; my former professors would get a kick out of you! Rather than try to explain the esoteric concept behind these lines of thought myself, let me refer you to a page from a book which was required reading when I earned one of my three four-year degrees in esoteric studies. The books inclusion on the required reading for the course should be credential enough for the basis of debate if you'd care to rebut.

THE PRINCIPLE OF POLARITY.
“Everything is Dual; everything has poles; everything has its pair of opposites; like and unlike are the same; opposites are identical in nature, but different in degree; extremes meet; all truths are but half-truths; all paradoxes may be reconciled.”–The Kybalion.

This Principle embodies the truth that “everything is dual”; “everything has two poles”; “everything has its pair of opposites,” all of which were old Hermetic axioms. It explains the old paradoxes, that have perplexed so many, which have been stated as follows: “Thesis and antithesis are identical in nature, but different in degree”; “opposites are the same, differing only in degree”; “the pairs of opposites may be reconciled”; “extremes meet”; “everything is and isn't, at the same time”; “all truths are but half-truths”; “every truth is half false”; “there are two sides to everything,” etc., etc., etc. It explains that in everything there are two poles, or opposite aspects, and that “opposites” are really only the two extremes of the same thing, with many varying degrees between them To illustrate: Heat and Cold, although “opposites,” are really the same thing, the differences consisting merely of degrees of the same thing. Look at your thermometer and see if you can discover where “heat” terminates and “cold” begins! There is no such thing as “absolute heat” or “absolute cold”– the two terms “heat” and “cold” simply indicate varying degrees of the same thing, and that “same thing” which manifests as “heat” and “cold” is merely a form, variety, and rate of Vibration. So “heat” and “cold” are simply the “two poles” of that which we call “Heat”–and the phenomena attendant thereupon are manifestations of the Principle of Polarity. The same principle manifests in the case of “Light and Darkness,” which are the same thing, the difference consisting of varying degrees between the two poles of the phenomena. Where does “darkness” leave off, and “light” begin? What is the difference between “Large and Small”? Between “Hard and Soft”? Between “Black and White”? Between “Sharp and Dull”? Between “Noise and Quiet”? Between “High and Low”? Between “Positive and Negative”? The Principle of Polarity explains these paradoxes, and no other Principle can supersede it. The same Principle operates on the Mental Plane. Let us take a radical and extreme example that of “Love and Hate,” two mental states apparently totally different. And yet there are degrees of Hate and degrees of Love, and a middle point in which we use the terms “Like or Dislike,” which shade into each other so gradually that sometimes we are at a loss to know whether we “like” or “dislike” or “neither.” And all are simply degrees of the same thing, as you will see if you will but think a moment. And, more than this (and considered of more importance by the Hermetists), it is possible to change the vibrations of Hate to the vibrations of Love, in one's own mind, and in the minds of others. Many of you, who read these lines, have had personal experiences of the involuntary rapid transition from Love to Hate, and the reverse, in your own case and that of others. And you will therefore realize the possibility of this being accomplished by the use of the Will, by means of the Hermetic formulas. “Good and Evil” are but the poles of the same thing, and the Hermetist understands the art of transmuting Evil into Good, by means of an application of the Principle of Polarity. In short, the “Art of Polarization” becomes a phase of “Mental Alchemy” known and practiced by the ancient and modern Hermetic Masters. An understanding of the Principle will enable one to change his own Polarity, as well as that of others, if he will devote the time and study necessary to master the art.

**ZippyTheSquirrel** · 12/27/2007 18:10:32

ShiXinFeng wrote:

...who are the true protagonists?

This is where the structure falls apart, and, to me, why the game fails in a story sense.

The game doesn't easily define a protagonist, though you wouldn't know it by the radical changes put in recent chapters that shift Machine and Zion morality lines into simplistic safe zones. You're supposed to make up your own mind over who is the "most good" good guy and go with that, or at least recognize the perks of joining with an evil corporation, like the Merovingian. This is what the earlier chapters established, with the Machine struggling to prove they aren't the heartless bastards that Zion thought they were. If you'll take a closer look now, you'll notice that was shredded with the breaking of the Truce, the seemingly arbitrary "Okay, we're done having fun, time to die, puny humans" way the Machs broke it off, and their sharply increased animosity with their human operatives.

EPN and Zion might as well be merged. I don't care how vigorously someone might defend the differences in motivations. They are essentially the same organization, now that they have both been slated as enemies by the Machines. Unless EPN finds a way to distance itself from Zion more effectively (more radical approaches to the founding goal of pursuing Neo/Morpheus's legacies), they might as well shack up. Not surprisingly, the same goes for the Cypherites. Veil may be the Matrix version of Xenia Onatopp (probably more than a coincidence considering the thick Russian and Cold War references back when MxO was "good"), but Cryptos keeps her right in line with his literally being half a Machine.

The Merovingian has always been portrayed as a bad guy. In my viewpoint, a truer, simpler way to preserve the "good guy, bad guy" trinity of the game would have been to quickly establish the Merovingian as the big bad boss man, and to have the main conflict between the Machines and Zion be how to handle his criminal manifestations, which would have led to a somewhat stable cycle of Win Some/Lose Some scenarios on all three sides. I believe this is what was initially experimented with when the Merovingian was revealed to be the source behind the Assassin, although the General understandably complicated things.

The plain, sad truth is that the world of the Matrix Online was poorly prepared for actual war, which has been proven by the oh-so-coincidental appearance and distraction of the Intruder. Call me a skeptic, but if the Intruder never popped up, the war thing probably would have gotten really really old rather rapidly. After all, it's clear that the Machines could quickly win a war if they pooled all their resources and tactical abilities. And then there's the question of why we're even fighting. But that's not really a story question, now, is it?

Sorry, I went off topic and ranted a bit, but I needed to get that off my chest. Again, it's 1999 because that's what Rarebit says it is. You'll find it impossible to prove otherwise until and unless he says otherwise. That's just the way things are.

Edit: I want to add something and incorporate PS10N's post above mine into my own little rant, since I both agree with it and enjoy his philosophical observations, in that in a good political-alliances game, the system would set up to look a bit like a "Y", with the Merovingian at one end and the Machines and Zion at the other, but with their own conflicted ideals, so, really, it would look like a "Y" with the two branches connected by another line. I don't know if that would be an ideal approach, but it looks stable enough to me on paper, and maybe even in practice if you study the older chapters of MxO.

**PS10N**

A wizard did it!

(Rarebit for Supreme High Wizard)

stewartdaniels1986

Not sure why this 'always 1999' idea is still being toyed with, but it's the right here and now inside the matrix, that is to say, it's December 2007, and in the real world, it's approximately 2207. The Animatrix confirms that, and this game doesn't change that. Operating systems don't determine time and date (try reloading your own OS for a better understanding).

Besides, it doesn't make sense to expect blue pills to accept that every few years it's 1999 all over again, despite the fact that their RSI's are many years older and they still have the memories of everything that had already happened. Their minds aren't being reloaded, just the environment. It's like jacking into MxO tomorrow and everything that had happened over the past 3 years had suddenly reverted to the launch state.

**PS10N** · 12/27/2007 22:19:47

According to the storyline of the Matrix Online which we are all playing out, it is always 1999 in the simulation and all the "physical" and mental records of time progressing are reset to "00:00:00 01-01-1999" a second after "23:59:59 12-31-1999" The Bluepills' minds are being edited. A lot of us don't like it (myself included) but that's the way it is because that's the way the Deus Ex MxO (Rarebit and Paul Chadwick) say it is. There is a Live Events post with TickTock talking to a confused Redpill about it here. There is more movie evidence against the idea than for it (see the Original Post in this thread) but we play it like we're dealt it. At least it explains why the city doesn't get more modern over time. By one way of reckoning, the one I prefer, in the Real it's about 2781.

**Croesis** · 12/28/2007 01:49:14

stewartdaniels1986 wrote:

Besides, it doesn't make sense to expect blue pills to accept that every few years it's 1999 all over again, despite the fact that their RSI's are many years older and they still have the memories of everything that had already happened. Their minds aren't being reloaded, just the environment. It's like jacking into MxO tomorrow and everything that had happened over the past 3 years had suddenly reverted to the launch state.

But it makes sense for them to believe everything else about the simulation? And it's not every few years its every year as PS10N said. The LE thread pointed out states that every year you get one year older and your birthdate gets pushed one year back on all records. If the Machines can manipulate a persons mind into believing something like the simulation and change something in it with perhaps only a sense of Deja Vu to the bluepill as evidence, then why can't their minds be slightly adjusted? Or are you saying that every bluepill that's been turned into an Agent will remember it? Or that every person in the Simulation when Smith overwrote everyone will remember it? Everything gets altered, not reloaded, just changed to suit.

Btw Whereabouts in the Animatrix does it confirm that it's approx. 2207 in the real?

**Denary**

I think whenever they re-started the cycle, there were 6 previous iterations of the Matrix, it reset itself to 1989 or something like that, Morpheus found the "Other" Neo's using that as a broad term SMILEY

then he finds the "One" in 1999 and when the Matrix used to be reset because the previous ones Chose to save humanity instead of Trinity the data also got reset to 1989 again, Because Neo didn't reset the Matrix in the latest iteration I think that the timeline has just continued as normal upto 2003, so really this 1999 thing is rubbish IMO.

Alternatively if the Machines can put a whole city into the Humans head surely it isn't too hard to make them think that it's ok in the Second Renaissance it showed that Humans had become corrupt and to keep the human race at a level they could easily control they could have just kept the date at 1999 and made them think that it was 1998 the previous year.

stewartdaniels1986

Quote:

"The matrix cannot tell you who you are."

I can't help the fact that MxO's story is full of holes and contradictions, but trying to defend one erroneous element of it with another doesn't work. I realize users have heavily invested themselves in this game and have forced themselves to rationalize a lot of inconsistencies as a result, but you simply can not edit/alter/whatever people's minds, you can only edit/alter/whatever the environment. Slow down and think about what is being implied; if minds could be edited, the machines would have the means to effectively prevent them from ever awakening. In the same way that reloading Windows doesn't alter your mother board, reloading the matrix doesn't alter your mind. Physically mucking around with the brain also adulterates its ability to accept the simulation by choice to begin with.

The bluepill aftermath of the Smith business was resolved when the Oracle asked Archie "what about the others, the ones that want out?", clearly indicating that there would be a surge of minds ready to awaken as a direct result of the incident. Otherwise there would be no point in her asking such a question. Bluepills weren't any more aware of the truce than they were of the war, so why else would any of them suddenly "want out"? The remainder would write it off as a dream or whatnot, same way they've (read: we've) dealt with everything else in life that doesn't jibe.

Btw Whereabouts in the Animatrix does it confirm that it's approx. 2207 in the real?

"Beyond" specifically shows a time stamp in a scan log from 2003 (when it was released), confirming that the simulation continues to progress in traditionally measured time beyond 1999, so we can roughly calculate the real world time based on the estimated year analogous to the trace logs from 1999 displayed in the first Matrix, "closer to 2199" + 8 years + x months + x days etc.

**Croesis** · 12/28/2007 08:09:16

stewartdaniels1986 wrote:

Btw Whereabouts in the Animatrix does it confirm that it's approx. 2207 in the real?
"Beyond" specifically shows a time stamp in a scan log from 2003 (when it was released), confirming that the simulation continues to progress in traditionally measured time beyond 1999, so we can roughly calculate the real world time based on the estimated year analogous to the trace logs from 1999 displayed in the first Matrix, "closer to 2199" + 8 years + x months + x days etc.

The flaw in that calculation is that you are taking Morpheus' estimation of the date which was guessed at before the revelation of the previous 5 iterations and the first two attempt at creating the simulation which failed.

This is a much more likely calculation:

Procurator wrote:

[Current date] = [End of the War] + [[Morpheus' guess] - [End of the War]]*[# of iterations] + [Some time for the first two failed versions]

So let's say:
2100 + (2199-2100)*6 + 50 = about 2750 at the very least. Using very conservative estimates, of course

I just watched beyond and I presume this is the scan log you were talking about...

What we could think of as a date is only shown as 2-2-03 who's to say that
a) Its the date, It could be a reference number....
b) It has anything to do with the date of the simulation. For all we know it could be the date of the real i.e. 2203, 2403, 2503 etc.....
There is nothing conclusive about that scan and as such nothing can be confirmed by it.

The quote by Trinity is one that was made of her own feelings and her own point of view and as such cannot be taken as undeniably true.

Again you talk of complete re-writing of the mind. I am not. Memories can be adjusted, hell people can do that themselves given the right circumstances. Unless you are an expert in Machine bio-manipulation procedures (and considering that its Sci-Fi, I will take it that you are not. That is like dictating to a story teller what can and can't happen in their own story and imagination) how do you know what is possible or not and what the outcomes would be?
If 21st Century medicinal chemicals can change a persons personality permanently, then what would the odds be that the Machines, who have had a long length of time to study Humans could know how to adjust the mind just enough to allow 99% of Humans to live by their rules and boundaries?
They had to leave choice in, they can't take it away because, as previously mentioned, the first two Simulations failed because of the lack of it.

As for the Oracle and Architects conversation, again what you say is conjecture, they could be merely talking about the 1% from that time forwards, not a mass of bluepills who had been awakened by experiences with Smith.

**ShiXinFeng**

Hmm, I would say your estimate is not conservative enough, Vinia, with respect to the first two failures. I can't imagine that it took 50 years for those two iterations to fail and be discarded, especially since the Machines were losing "entire crops" of people. I'd say that 10 years is more like it, for both iterations to try, fail, try again, fail and be discarded.

For Stewie, your penchant for ignoring Rarebit's creative direction aside, I don't understand why this is a difficult concept to accept? I mean, if one can accept the ability for the remainder of the human race to be living in a dream world, why can't one accept the simple measure the Machines take to make sure that society doesn't progress?

The Live Event with Tick-Tock showed us that each year, the Machines change everything to make it 1999 again. They make everything that happened in 1999v.103 appear to have happened in 1998, and everything that had appeared to happen in 1998, gets changed to appear as though it had happened in 1997. Then they begin again with 1999v.104.

The Live Event with Digger showed us that the Machines went to great lengths to change the order of Creator/created and shows what would happen if time were allowed to advance in the simulation.

Finally, the Merv missions from 8.3 ["The Disputed Death of Mary MacHenry", "Séance", and "Unplugged"] tell the story of Mary Machenry and how she came to be unplugged from the system. During the missions, you learn that Mary's mom had her memory altered so that she remembers the event surrounding her daughter's "death" differently than what actually occurred.

All of these elements, put together, add up to a system that can perpetually hold time in place by altering the Matrix itself and the memories of bluepills, and even provides a reason why. Can't ask for much more than that in a fictional story, now can we?

**ShiXinFeng**

ZippyTheSquirrel wrote:

The plain, sad truth is that the world of the Matrix Online was poorly prepared for actual war, which has been proven by the oh-so-coincidental appearance and distraction of the Intruder. Call me a skeptic, but if the Intruder never popped up, the war thing probably would have gotten really really old rather rapidly. After all, it's clear that the Machines could quickly win a war if they pooled all their resources and tactical abilities. And then there's the question of why we're even fighting. But that's not really a story question, now, is it?

But Zip, you're assuming that the Intruder has nothing to do with the war. . .

Recent events have led me to believe that he is here because of the war, and that we better start warming up to him real quick. . .