Shi+Xin+Feng wrote:

The Machines crossed the line when they all-but-obliterated the human race

The Machines didn't do that.  It's what humans tried to do to the Machines.

You need to watch the Animatrix again.

 

 

Illyria

 

 

         MetaLogic wrote:

                     Illyria22 wrote:

                     The Machines didn't do that.  It's what humans tried to do to the Machines.

                     You need to watch the Animatrix again.

                     Illyria  

        The machines only nuked NYC and the UN after the humans tried to wipe them out by blacking the skies. 

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The events leading up to the UN surrendering to the Machines, was the nearly-complete slaughter of the human race.

From a transcript of the Animatrix: Second Renaissance (part 2)

     Narrator: And man said "let there be light." And he was blessed by light, heat, magnetism, gravity, and all of the energies of the universe. The Prolonged barrage engulfed zero one in the glow of a thousand suns. But unlike their former masters with their delicate flesh, the machines had little to fear of the bomb's radiation and heat. Thus did Zero one's troops advance upwards in every direction, and one after another, mankind surrendered its territories. So the leaders of men conceived of their most desperate strategy yet, a final solution; the destruction of the sky.

     (lots of military personell and religious people speaking out/praying, but it'd be ridiculous to list them all, knowing exactly what they say is not critical to the story)

     Jet Pilot: <unclear word> Bravo this is papa one, operation dark start initiated.

     Narrator: Thus would man try to cut the machines off from the sun, their main energy source. May there be mercy on man and machine for their sins.

     Soldier 1: Kill them all! Kill them all! Kill them all!

     Soldier 2: Fire in the hole! 

     Soldier 3: Help me! Help me! Oh God Help me! HELP ME! OH GOD HELP ME!!!!!

     Narrator: The machines, having long studied man's simple protein based bodies, dispensed great misery on the human race. Victorious, the machines now turned to the vanquished. Applying what they had learned about their enemy, the machines turned to an alternate and readily available power supply, the bioelectric, thermal, and kinetic energies of the human body. A newly refashioned symbiotic relationship between the two adversaries was born. The machine, drawing power from the human body, an endlessly multiplying infinitely renewable energy source. This is the very essence of the second renaissance. Bless all forms of intelligence.

     Sentinel: Your flesh is a relic, a mere vessel. Hand over your flesh and a new world awaits you. We demand it.

(Found online at http://www.matrixfans.net/anime/tra...cripts/sr2.html)

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The Machines destroyed the armies of Man, and then turned on the ones who were left (Victorious, the machines now turned to the vanquished.) to enslave them.

Not to say that mankind did not deserve his judgement or punishment. But no race deserves to be enslaved. Not for judgement, not for punishment, not for the sake of the Matrix, and certainly not for the sake of the Machines. When they did that, the Machines gave up any claim to righteousness they may have had. 

EDIT: For formatting (grrr!)

At the end of the war you do have to consider the question of purpose - essentially the purpose of machines was to serve mankind, survival was a facet they developed over time rather than with humans an inherent drive in essence the creation of the Matrix was a logical combination of both aims sustaining them in energy, fulfilling their purpose to serve man (albeit involuntary). I'm not entirely sure it is reasonable to try and assign an emotional explanation for their actions at the end of the war in a cold calculated manner it was a means to acheive their fundamental goal....(initially they had to get the human race to a manageable population etc?)

That humans of the time deserved this fate seems little doubt (at least the ones in power), but as of our current predicament both human and machine alike are different beasts.....the question remains is are they different enough?

After watching The Second Renaissance part one and two of the Animatrix.  I actually felt sorry for the machines.  I am a machinist, but still.  I mean all they wanted was to live in peace with mankind and to have the same rights and benefits of man too.  In a way they were justified to carry out the war with man.  What do yall think? 

Machines were definately the victims - humans used them, and refused to hear their pleas for peacefull coexistance and equality. Then when the Machines actually started to prosper, they tried to wipe them out and wound up ruining the planet in the process.

Keep in mind another quote of the series:

"My both humans and machine be forgiven for their sins..."

That one line sums it up...

The whole war was a knee-jerk reaction to be honest and yes while the machine actions were brutal (the ripping out of a man from his mobile suit...) and their retribution swift (Nuke in the UN) along with their Terminator style knowledge of human anatomy for the creation of the Matrix and enslavement of the human race, it is a concept that is generally accepted as "logical". (Terminator movies - Machines have a detailed knowledge of human anatomy for the purpose of quick kills etc / I, Robot  movie - Robotic logic system dicates that humans need to be enslaved to protect them from themselves, ergo this conclusion comes through lack of emotion.) Effectively they were just as they are, cold blooded killers/body recovers freed of a conscious or emotional impact of something.

It's a lot more frightening to me that humans can do just about the same things as the machines did without a second thought and yet we would argue ourselves absolved of it somehow.

In the end though, both parties were brutally brutally in the wrong... Another line to remember when it comes to the enslavement situation;

"Thus did man become the architech of his own demise"

Take away a power source and you effectively find you'll turn into one =p It's also worth noting that while the enslavement of humanity was a sad event it was a logical solution of keeping the two co-existing, I'd fully be willing to state that the human's of that timeline were such morons they would probably inbreed to build up their numbers and start another war... -_-;;

        The events leading up to the UN surrendering to the Machines, was the nearly-complete slaughter of the human race.

Does it actually say anywhere that the human race was nearly wiped out?  Maybe the armies were, but I don't think the civilian population was.

Illyria

The humans damned their own civilian population - without the sun, they essentially killed off their entire food supply. 

According to The General's blog (written by Chadwick, but unreliable since the General loves deception), Zero One was established in Iraq.

 Edit: Here's the exact quotation.

The great efficiencies of 01 and its industrial satellites in the former Iraq -- which Machines purchased dirt cheap, since the chaos of the early 21st century created a failed state in the region, not to mention vast toxic reaches of "depleted" uranium contamination -- gradually sapped the blood out of the industrial base of the rest of the world. 

The Machines crossed the line when they all-but-obliterated the human race, and then genetically-engineered and grew slaves for the purpose of turning them into a commodity.

Not only does the end not justify the means, it nullifies any 'live and let live' bargaining the Machines want to spew out.

As long as the human race is enslaved to the Machine, no quarter shall be asked or given.

 

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((ooc- human arrogance started the war, but the machines d@mn sure finished it! I wouldn't begrudge them that; war is war. But I also don't think peace would ever be possible between the two races, because each society would be competing for the same, pitiful remnants of natural resources that would be left in the Earth. The war reduced the planet to a cold, lifeless hunk of rock that really would be incapable of supporting  unfettered societies of both men and machines.))