[8.2.1] It should help us plan our strike on the lines - Recursion - 8/23/07

**Illyria22**

Pyraci wrote:

But something must be done when the slave master doesn't want to hear words of freedom. Even going back to the Hebrews when they were held in Egypt, the Pharaoh only let the people go when he wasn't able to keep control of them. I'm all for peace like the reverend said, but when our freedom is viewed as hostility, the Machine won't allow us to have it unless they can no longer keep it from us.

- Ezechiel

"You can't separate peace from freedom because no one can be at peace unless he has his freedom."
- Malcolm X (1925 - 1965)

Interestingly, there is no archaeological evidence for the release of a mass group of slaves anywhere in Egyptian history. The only mass 'exodus' recorded was when the native Egyptians drove out the Hyksos -- the 'chiefs of foreign lands' who'd taken control of the country after the Middle Kingdom. Eventually the native people rose up and drove the foreigners out of Egypt. It's still a story about people fighting their oppressors, though, so I suppose it can be used as analogy of the human/Machine situation too.

Illyria

**Pyraci**

Yes it can be used, but just because we don't have archaeological evidence, doesn't necessarily mean this or that didn't happen; Just that things may have played out differently than we interpret them. We have to remember that during this time, history wasn't recorded the way we understand it, and the early books of the Bible, etc. don't always read literally. This is why we can't always go on physical and empirical evidence. After all, we STILL don't know what year it really is, do we?

However, the point still stands. Rarely, if ever, is the slave master willing to give up control unless he finds it necessary or just can't control the slaves anymore. More often than not, slaves don't gain their freedom through peace, although that seems like the ideal means.

**Roukan**

Croesus wrote:

"Since wars begin in the minds of men, it is in the minds of men that the defenses of peace must be constructed."

UNESCO Constitution (Pre-AI)

I don't think the machines would like you calling them men.

**ShiXinFeng**

This isn't just about slave masters and control. This is about Choice and Emotion, and the Machines' inability to comprehend and adapt to it.

Choice creates confusion in a Machine's mind, even those as advanced as those we face today. Choice can be irrational, illogical, and all thanks to human emotion.

Would mankind be better off in the pods, with the Machines acting as caretakers for the remainder of eternity. Perhaps. Who can say?

But we did not choose to be there. We were put there, against our will, fighting since day one against the lies the Machines have been trying to feed us. We struggle, body and mind, to be Free to choose our own fate.

We need a revolution. And, as my compatriots have said, there can be no Revolution without the first revolt.

**Garu**

Those who wish to be freed were given the right to do so without interference. There was an opportunity to build upon the freedoms given to humanity but instead it was used to plan for warfare.

There is a reason we are not "free" because despite how much we yearn and fight for it, we haven't earned it yet.

**ShiXinFeng**

What part of "inalienable rights" do you not understand?

**Garu**

The part where someone decided we didn't have to earn our freedom.

**ShiXinFeng**

And what would happen if Zion were to lay down its arms, drop its defenses, and say, "okay, you win. Now how about the next step?"

**Garu**

Negotations can then occur so that a truce is reinstated. Laying down their arms would be an action that clearly states that they mean no harm to the Machines.

Would it actually happen? I'm not betting on it. There's no trust between the two bodies.

**Croesis**

Roukan wrote:

Croesus wrote:

"Since wars begin in the minds of men, it is in the minds of men that the defenses of peace must be constructed."

UNESCO Constitution (Pre-AI)

I don't think the machines would like you calling them men.

I need not tell you who began this war, if you are still unsure, watch the records from the Zion Mainframe entitled the second renaissance.

**Illyria22**

Shi+Xin+Feng wrote:

And what would happen if Zion were to lay down its arms, drop its defenses, and say, "okay, you win. Now how about the next step?"

Then negotiations could begin.

Illyria

**Roukan** · 09/01/2007 09:36:26

Croesus wrote:

Roukan wrote:
Croesus wrote:

"Since wars begin in the minds of men, it is in the minds of men that the defenses of peace must be constructed."

UNESCO Constitution (Pre-AI)

I don't think the machines would like you calling them men.

I need not tell you who began this war, if you are still unsure, watch the records from the Zion Mainframe entitled the second renaissance.

Humans started the original war due to the ignorance of one machine. Machines started this war due to the ignorance of one decision of a man.

If you are still unsure, maybe you should make sure you're not still asleep.

Havocide

Illyria22 wrote:

Shi+Xin+Feng wrote:
And what would happen if Zion were to lay down its arms, drop its defenses, and say, "okay, you win. Now how about the next step?"

Then negotiations could begin.

Illyria

Yeah if you say so. Some how I doubt machine's negotiate, these days.

**Pyraci**

Roukan wrote:

Croesus wrote:
Roukan wrote:
Croesus wrote:

"Since wars begin in the minds of men, it is in the minds of men that the defenses of peace must be constructed."

UNESCO Constitution (Pre-AI)

I don't think the machines would like you calling them men.

I need not tell you who began this war, if you are still unsure, watch the records from the Zion Mainframe entitled the second renaissance.
Humans started the original war due to the ignorance of one machine. Machines started this war due to the ignorance of one decision of a man.

If you are still unsure, maybe you should make sure you're not still asleep.

Amen. The machine doesn't understand our need to defend ourselves when threatened, the same way our ancestors didn't understand a machine's need to defend itself when threatened. Sounds like the same thing, different sides to me. The machine is not above us in that respect. With all their intelligence and logic, they've become what they fought against all this time.

**Roukan**

Illyria22 wrote:

Shi+Xin+Feng wrote:
And what would happen if Zion were to lay down its arms, drop its defenses, and say, "okay, you win. Now how about the next step?"

Then negotiations could begin.

Illyria

This is war. If Zion were to lay down arms, then the Machines would slaughter them. The Machines had no reason to declare it on humans again, and you're still foolish enough not to see YOU'RE the bad guys in this. But then again, in this world, there's never such sides.

Now what will happen is, Zion will retaliate, and all the Machinists will shout they were right that New Zion was an attack fortress.

I hope you get ripped apart by the sentinels you recognize as heroes.