Yeah the old Cryptos was friends with Cypher, not Morpheus so the two names probably got mixed up! (though you have to wonder how they were friends back then with their different views! :O )

I think in the end Morpheus knew that the machines would never have let millions of people die because of his bombs, so I guess even though some people died and he did put everyone at risk which was totally wrong, in his head I think he knew the Matrix wouldn't be in danger and most people would be fine because the machines would give in and give him Neo's body before that ever happened!  I guess the losses it took to get there were okay with him!

Skill, that "exact number" comes from Morpheus himself, while speaking to the Oracle.

Some people might say "that isn't what he meant".  But then, if he doesn't mean it, why does he say it?  Without the Oracle demurring or correcting him?  And if the Machine system came down, just what _was_ his plan for taking care of billions of the unpodded?    It's not like Zion in the films was a poster-child for the life of the future or anything....

Skill wrote:

Relapse wrote:

But hey, If people want to follow a man whose actions cost MILLIONS of people their lives, everywhere. Go right ahead, they will be put down like dogs. Just like every other terrorist and their senseless propaganda.

>Pilot_

Is that an exact number?

Skill wrote:

Relapse wrote:

But hey, If people want to follow a man whose actions cost MILLIONS of people their lives, everywhere. Go right ahead, they will be put down like dogs. Just like every other terrorist and their senseless propaganda.

>Pilot_

Is that an exact number?

Skill, that "exact number" comes from Morpheus himself, while speaking to the Oracle.

Some people might say "that isn't what he meant".  But then, if he doesn't mean it, why does he say it?  Without the Oracle demurring or correcting him?  And if the Machine system came down, just what _was_ his plan for taking care of billions of the unpodded? It's not like Zion in the films was a poster-child for the life of the future or anything....

He said he was willing to kill millions of people in one of the cinematics, when he talks to the Oracle.

Illyria

Yes he did.

And in the movies the Machines made it clear they were willing to let all of humanity die along with the Matrix just because the Cycle of the One failed in its sixth iteration. Yes, at the very end when the Smith virus had completely consumed the simulation, the Machines were willing to let it all expire just like that. They did everything they could to kill Neo. A dead Neo doesn't save the Matrix. 

The Machines knew the Matrix was doomed and they still tried to destroy Neo and Zion. That covers all the humans everywhere. Let me see now...counts on fingers slowly.... that's like billions of bluepills which is thousands of millions...so that makes the Machines thousands of times worse than Morpheus... oh and that's the end of humanity under the guardianship of the Machines.

You remember saying this, "There is no threat of the extinction of the human race while the Machines still exist."? Of course you remember. You remember what happened in the movies? Of course you do.

Why do you make up such contrived lies?

Why are you so afraid of Morpheus returning? What do you fear he will do... tell everyone the truth?

Does the truth give you a rash?

...Yes, at the very end when the Smith virus had completely consumed the simulation, the Machines were willing to let it all expire just like that. They did everything they could to kill Neo. A dead Neo doesn't save the Matrix. 

No they didn't.  The approach of the Logos initiated the self-defense system.  They were merely trying to destroy the craft despite Neo being in it.  After he crashed and wandered through 01, nothing attacked him.  Why? <insert obvious answer here>

The Machines knew the Matrix was doomed and they still tried to destroy Neo and Zion. That covers all the humans everywhere. Let me see now...counts on fingers slowly.... that's like billions of bluepills which is thousands of millions...so that makes the Machines thousands of times worse than Morpheus... oh and that's the end of humanity under the guardianship of the Machines.

Zion was only populated by approximately 250,000 people at that time. 

Furthermore, had Smith reached the point of destroying it, the Machines merely would have shut it down.  The pods and power system would have remained intact and continued to function.  Remember, the Matrix is only the simulation that the pod-borns dream in, not the machine city itself.  In fact, the Plant is quite a distance from the actual city.

Countless billions would have lived on while only Zion would have ultimately fallen...again.

You remember saying this, "There is no threat of the extinction of the human race while the Machines still exist."? Of course you remember. You remember what happened in the movies? Of course you do.

Yeah but there's nothing wrong with re-watching them.  Memory tends to fade and warp over time.  Details get washed away.

Why do you make up such contrived lies?

It's not contrived, it's an opinion deduced from reasonable logic.  Try it.

Why are you so afraid of Morpheus returning? What do you fear he will do... tell everyone the truth?

Everyone knows the truth and dead men don't talk.  Fear has nothing to do with it.  The only thing we're concerned about is all his brown-nosing followers who would blindly follow any order he gave at the drop of hat just to satisfy their "hero".

Does the truth give you a rash?

Are you incapable of debating without resorting to irrelevant personal attacks?

r3spon5e wrote:

...Yes, at the very end when the Smith virus had completely consumed the simulation, the Machines were willing to let it all expire just like that. They did everything they could to kill Neo. A dead Neo doesn't save the Matrix. 

No they didn't.  The approach of the Logos initiated the self-defense system.  They were merely trying to destroy the craft despite Neo being in it.  After he crashed and wandered through 01, nothing attacked him.  Why? <insert obvious answer here>

And I guess they couldn't tell it was The One blasting Sentinels out of the sky with just his thoughts. I mean, since he was so close to the Source and all.

The Machines knew the Matrix was doomed and they still tried to destroy Neo and Zion. That covers all the humans everywhere. Let me see now...counts on fingers slowly.... that's like billions of bluepills which is thousands of millions...so that makes the Machines thousands of times worse than Morpheus... oh and that's the end of humanity under the guardianship of the Machines.

Zion was only populated by approximately 250,000 people at that time. 

Furthermore, had Smith reached the point of destroying it, the Machines merely would have shut it down.  The pods and power system would have remained intact and continued to function.  Remember, the Matrix is only the simulation that the pod-borns dream in, not the machine city itself.  In fact, the Plant is quite a distance from the actual city.

Countless billions would have lived on while only Zion would have ultimately fallen...again.

Yes, but that still doesn't account for the fact that they were (and still are) completely ready to commit absolute genocide.

You remember saying this, "There is no threat of the extinction of the human race while the Machines still exist."? Of course you remember. You remember what happened in the movies? Of course you do.

Yeah but there's nothing wrong with re-watching them.  Memory tends to fade and warp over time.  Details get washed away.

Well, that's convenient. When you Machinists say something wrong, it's a mistake. When we say something wrong, it's a conspiracy.

Why do you make up such contrived lies?

It's not contrived, it's an opinion deduced from reasonable logic.  Try it.

"Logic is the beginning of wisdom, not the end" -Leonard Nimoy

Why are you so afraid of Morpheus returning? What do you fear he will do... tell everyone the truth?

Everyone knows the truth and dead men don't talk.  Fear has nothing to do with it.  The only thing we're concerned about is all his brown-nosing followers who would blindly follow any order he gave at the drop of hat just to satisfy their "hero".

There are so many assumptions in this response, I don't even have to try. But, I do have to ask - everyone knows the truth?

Does the truth give you a rash?

Are you incapable of debating without resorting to irrelevant personal attacks?

*Points up to the "brown-nosing" insult Garu himself just made.

Garu wrote:

r3spon5e wrote:

...Yes, at the very end when the Smith virus had completely consumed the simulation, the Machines were willing to let it all expire just like that. They did everything they could to kill Neo. A dead Neo doesn't save the Matrix. 

No they didn't.  The approach of the Logos initiated the self-defense system.  They were merely trying to destroy the craft despite Neo being in it.  After he crashed and wandered through 01, nothing attacked him.  Why? <insert obvious answer here>

And I guess they couldn't tell it was The One blasting Sentinels out of the sky with just his thoughts. I mean, since he was so close to the Source and all.

Possibly but if they meant to kill him, he gave them the opportunity to.  Right?

The Machines knew the Matrix was doomed and they still tried to destroy Neo and Zion. That covers all the humans everywhere. Let me see now...counts on fingers slowly.... that's like billions of bluepills which is thousands of millions...so that makes the Machines thousands of times worse than Morpheus... oh and that's the end of humanity under the guardianship of the Machines.

Zion was only populated by approximately 250,000 people at that time. 

Furthermore, had Smith reached the point of destroying it, the Machines merely would have shut it down.  The pods and power system would have remained intact and continued to function.  Remember, the Matrix is only the simulation that the pod-borns dream in, not the machine city itself.  In fact, the Plant is quite a distance from the actual city.

Countless billions would have lived on while only Zion would have ultimately fallen...again.

Yes, but that still doesn't account for the fact that they were (and still are) completely ready to commit absolute genocide.

Zion does not account for our entire race.  The machines have always sought to safeguard the coppertops.

You remember saying this, "There is no threat of the extinction of the human race while the Machines still exist."? Of course you remember. You remember what happened in the movies? Of course you do.

Yeah but there's nothing wrong with re-watching them.  Memory tends to fade and warp over time.  Details get washed away.

Well, that's convenient. When you Machinists say something wrong, it's a mistake. When we say something wrong, it's a conspiracy.

What magic hat did you pull that from?  I was merely commenting that there's nothing wrong with rewatching the films.

Why do you make up such contrived lies?

It's not contrived, it's an opinion deduced from reasonable logic.  Try it.

"Logic is the beginning of wisdom, not the end" -Leonard Nimoy

"Live long and prosper." - Spock

Why are you so afraid of Morpheus returning? What do you fear he will do... tell everyone the truth?

Everyone knows the truth and dead men don't talk.  Fear has nothing to do with it.  The only thing we're concerned about is all his brown-nosing followers who would blindly follow any order he gave at the drop of hat just to satisfy their "hero".

There are so many assumptions in this response, I don't even have to try. But, I do have to ask - everyone knows the truth?

Yes, even if only on a subconscious level.

Does the truth give you a rash?

Are you incapable of debating without resorting to irrelevant personal attacks?

*Points up to the "brown-nosing" insult Garu himself just made.

That was not a personal attack on R3spon5e.  I was speaking generally of people so enamored by Morpheus that they'd do anything he asked.

So are you saying his request for logical discourse is inappropriate?  Should we all just make up whatever illogical conclusions we wish and then try to rationalize them later?

What Garu said. 

Illyria

What Garu said. 

 

Illyria

Fatmop wrote:

So are you saying his request for logical discourse is inappropriate?  Should we all just make up whatever illogical conclusions we wish and then try to rationalize them later?

Many already do. Seems the norm these days...

Pyraci wrote:

Fatmop wrote:

So are you saying his request for logical discourse is inappropriate?  Should we all just make up whatever illogical conclusions we wish and then try to rationalize them later?

Many already do. Seems the norm these days...

That doesn't make it the correct (or even the intelligent) thing to do.