Vindicator
Joined: Nov 30, 2005
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My thoughts on the subject are rather 'take it in stride.' The way I see it, as lore for a particular universe spans different mediums, exchanges hands, and is developed by different peoples, inconsistencies on some finer points are bound to arise. Happens all the time. In my mind, however, these inconsistencies don't become story-breaking unless they completely take away from the original intent of the original piece that the lore is based off of. The way I see time in the Matrix universe is based on what I'm focusing on. Since I'm now focusing on changing world of MxO at the moment, I see it as 'always 1999,' considering that's what's been explained to us. I see this explanations as fitting with the overall feel of the original lore as it creates a means to an end (IE "How do we prevent mankind in the Matrix from evolving to the point of the first AI creation? Prevent it from happening by never letting them evolve to that point.". Seems like Machine thinking to me, and it works, so I'm okay with it. Granted, I might've preferred another method that wasn't so far out (maybe involving an eventual reset or something to make time less perpetual to an outside observer or something). All this and I don't feel a huge detraction from the original lore, in it's overall idea and feeling. So I'll take it for what it is, and enjoy what I have here (lore, gameplay, etc.) and, at the same time enjoy the rest of the published ideas on the Matrix that I considered pertinent to it's overall embodiment.
What if the numbers in the screenshot weren't the date? :O
I was thinking that too originally, but the format is correct and it is placed next to the time. The numbers could possibly be referenced to numbered file cases etc... but that's a stretch. All things being equal, the simplest explanation tends to be the correct one...
Vindicator
Joined: Aug 16, 2005
Messages: 3116
Location: The Saltpillar
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Archangel wrote:
PS10N wrote:
BAD Ideas that are NOT in the movies but have stunk their way in to MxO canon:
1) It's always 1999 in the Matrix. 2) The Matrix is only a big city and a surrounding mountain range. 3) Morpheus found five "failed Ones" before finding Neo.
And before I get jumped (again) for #3 because "it's in the original script:" it was in the script and was not shot in to the movie because it was a BAD IDEA that they REJECTED. Going thru old movie scripts to find things that were not used in order to show that they were "real" is pretty flawed. The early scripts of "Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan" don't include Spock's death so, following the same logic as those who are whining "but it's in the script they didn't use!" then Spock didn't die in Wrath of Khan, either, even tho that's what everyone saw on the screen. The W Bros re-used the concept of "five previous Ones" in Reloaded, so throwing it back on top of the present cycle makes no sense and is the equivalent of eating thrown away food out of garbage bin. They threw it out because it was bad - why are you so eager to eat it up?
Seriously, PS10N, why is it so hard for you to conceive of the plausability that Morpheus, in his zealousness to fulfill his destiny, jumped to the conclusion that he had found "The One" when all he had really found was another average Joe. It's not that far out of a concept. But anyways, while we're on the continuity train...something that's always bugged me...
Well, there's no place of residency listed. So, though born in Capital City, it's entirely possible that Neo resided in "Mega City."
I don't really see the idea of it being "Always 1999" as conflicting. Not in the least - as a matter of fact, it accentuates the point the brothers were trying to make. The Machines are not going to "let" the bluepills of the Matrix do anything - their jobs, their lives, even their time is regulated in an everlasting, unchanging cycle. Let their technology advance? Absurd - they may find a way to free themselves of the Matrix through technology. What chemist might develop his own red pill? (Note to self: Good idea for an RP story - I had it first, no stealing! )
Moreover, technology would likely progress as it had during the "real" timeline, where AI would eventually be created, and the war would repeat itself. I'm guessing that's not something the Machines want to see happen.
As for the five previous versions of the One? It adds to the theme of control. Zion only knew what the Machines had told them, or, depending on your view, had allowed them to learn. As a matter of fact, everything we know now is still contingent on what they've said. There's a war because we've been told there's a war. There are seven Matrixes because we've been told there are seven. I think this is something that's been alluded to when the Merovingian talked with the Morpheus simulacra about the Machines' power source, and his answers were rather unfounded.
So far as I can see, those documents from the movie don't form your alleged contradiction. Thomas Anderson, according to the sheets was born in Capital City and has a passport from there but who is to say he didn't move from Capital City to the city in which the story takes place? But even then, I have to agree that it's annoying to see these little niggly things crop up no matter how you can explain them away.
Edit: Neoteny posted it first... I was delayed by having to perform disgusting deeds.
Message edited by GypsyJuggler on 12/12/2007 19:00:16.
Vindicator
Joined: Aug 15, 2005
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The unfortunate truth is that everything within The Matrix Online could be fully storied and explained in such a way that the whole concept, "It's just this way because it is a game" wouldn't even be considered. Some of these aspects were purposely ignored originally and have/can be addressed in the future. One example is the EJP or Emergency Jack-out Protocol, at first there was no reference to this. However it was later mentioned that a thrid party had designed/implemented the EJP, I believe it was Danielle Wright. Now it has been explained that in order to truly kill someone, you would need to manipulate their EJP via a specified kill-code or by forcibly pulling their plug in the real. The lack of true deletion occurring after we kill the exiles has recently been explained a bit more. Basically, Exiles often have a backup copy that can be activated in case of their deletion.
Now back to the original topic. The forever 1999 idea is unfortunately limiting storywise, but it does add another level to the machines deception of the bluepill population. I find this to be highly implausible and really wish it hadn't gone that way.
Systemic Anomaly
Joined: Dec 9, 2005
Messages: 1671
Location: Amidst polymer and steel...
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Roukan wrote:
Tygrius wrote:
MxO-PhanthomZtryker wrote:
Vesuveus wrote:
2007 in The Matrix, closer to 2207 in the Real.
Don't you mean 3007? I think he said 1999 was 2999.
actually it was said to be closer to 2199...."I cant tell you the real date because honestly, I dont know."
Also, one thing you have to ask about that scene from the animatrix....was that an event of the matrix we know? or a past version? That could very well of happened somewhere towards the end of the 4th or 5th version and merely be more of an "historical document" to show the machines methods of purging anomolies.
2199 is not plausible. 7 iterations of the Matrix. Besides, 1999 is when AI was CREATED. There's the time between creation and the Matrix.
You don't think that 200 years is a long time? That's long enough.
An Iteration could be 30 years. Six iterations x 30 = 180 years. Still gives 20 years for the events of the Second Renaissance where the Machines are built, outcast, and destroy the humans. We could go further and say that each iteration is 20 years. That gives even more time. Can't look at it from a perspective of the world we know, because this is fiction.
In Predator 2 they said 1997 would see LA overrun by drug lord violence followed by the insurgence of a sneaky alien that takes human skulls for trophies. Demolition Man said that by the new millennium all restaurants would be Taco Bell.
Systemic Anomaly
Joined: Dec 9, 2005
Messages: 1671
Location: Amidst polymer and steel...
Online
Archangel wrote:
PS10N wrote:
BAD Ideas that are NOT in the movies but have stunk their way in to MxO canon:
1) It's always 1999 in the Matrix. 2) The Matrix is only a big city and a surrounding mountain range. 3) Morpheus found five "failed Ones" before finding Neo.
And before I get jumped (again) for #3 because "it's in the original script:" it was in the script and was not shot in to the movie because it was a BAD IDEA that they REJECTED. Going thru old movie scripts to find things that were not used in order to show that they were "real" is pretty flawed. The early scripts of "Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan" don't include Spock's death so, following the same logic as those who are whining "but it's in the script they didn't use!" then Spock didn't die in Wrath of Khan, either, even tho that's what everyone saw on the screen. The W Bros re-used the concept of "five previous Ones" in Reloaded, so throwing it back on top of the present cycle makes no sense and is the equivalent of eating thrown away food out of garbage bin. They threw it out because it was bad - why are you so eager to eat it up?
Seriously, PS10N, why is it so hard for you to conceive of the plausability that Morpheus, in his zealousness to fulfill his destiny, jumped to the conclusion that he had found "The One" when all he had really found was another average Joe. It's not that far out of a concept. But anyways, while we're on the continuity train...something that's always bugged me...
Although I agree with the point about Morpheus, I have to disagree with the link based on its source. Wikipedia also says that a Matrix Online player on Vector is the Runner from the Animatrix that was reprogrammed. You can't trust Wikipedia as an authority because anyone can put information up there.
Ascendent Logic
Joined: Mar 16, 2006
Messages: 4814 Offline
ShiXinFeng wrote:
Zerotolerance wrote:
Wikipedia also says that a Matrix Online player on Vector is the Runner from the Animatrix that was reprogrammed.
No way. WHERE?!?!
If that is true, it will make my day. Because that will be the funniest *CENSORED* thing I'll have heard all day.
Isn't there someone RPing a zombie on Recursion?
Anyways, the concept of "it's always 1999" is for us inplausible. The only way to achieve that is to modify ALL dates that run through the system (including memories) when the Matrix hits 31st December 1999 23:59:59. The problem the Machines face is that they don't allow humans to develop technology, that's why they need to freeze that development when it occurs. Well, why would that involve the date you say? Because humans would wonder about the technological development over the last years (from 1999 to today) and compare them with the development from before 1999 (which is data planted from the Machines anyway).
Also, saying that it's always to be 1999, who said that in the movies? As far as I can recall from the movies, it was only modeled after the human civilisation from 1999.
Jacked Out
Joined: Aug 18, 2005
Messages: 3613 Offline
Ok, that's ridiculous and yes, very sad. Is there really that much of a need for us to try to make our personal character RP or fan-fic part of MxO canon?
I think there's either a lack of understanding of what player RP really is in this setting or someone's out for attention, or both. :/
Anyways, the concept of "it's always 1999" is for us inplausible. The only way to achieve that is to modify ALL dates that run through the system (including memories) when the Matrix hits 31st December 1999 23:59:59. The problem the Machines face is that they don't allow humans to develop technology, that's why they need to freeze that development when it occurs. Well, why would that involve the date you say? Because humans would wonder about the technological development over the last years (from 1999 to today) and compare them with the development from before 1999 (which is data planted from the Machines anyway).
Also, saying that it's always to be 1999, who said that in the movies? As far as I can recall from the movies, it was only modeled after the human civilisation from 1999.
=/
Meh, I'm not too concerned about the 1999 thing, and can suspend my disbelief in order to continue the game without interuption. (heh, see what I did there?)
The story was already leaning this way, ambiguously leaving it "up in the air" in the first film. After Smith's explanation, what else could it be but a deliberate time loop. There were also some nods in this direction coming from the comics and the Animatrix, I think. Someone else will have to cite it though; I'm too lazy to look it up. heh
As far as a function of the plot, however, this "perpetual 1999" notion is much more powerful. The idea that the Machines feel they can stop time and subvert change is necessary to show their weakness. Think about it for a sec, if the Machines were perfect in 100% of their solutions, there would be no story. Everyone knows that Time cannot be stopped, and Change is inevitable. This serves to empower the protagonist(s) as the instrument of Change for the good of Natural Balance.
Hmm. . .this leads me to a new line of thinking, though. In today's Matrix story, who are the true protagonists?
. Seems like Machine thinking to me, and it works, so I'm okay with it. Granted, I might've preferred another method that wasn't so far out (maybe involving an eventual reset or something to make time less perpetual to an outside observer or something). All this and I don't feel a huge detraction from the original lore, in it's overall idea and feeling. So I'll take it for what it is, and enjoy what I have here (lore, gameplay, etc.) and, at the same time enjoy the rest of the published ideas on the Matrix that I considered pertinent to it's overall embodiment.
)
