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<title>Latest posts for the topic &quot;All Machines go to Heaven?&quot;</title>
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<description>Latest messages posted in the topic &quot;All Machines go to Heaven?&quot;</description>
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<title>Re:All Machines go to Heaven?</title>
<description>&lt;cite&gt;Illyria22 wrote:&lt;/cite&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;cite&gt;Neoteny wrote:&lt;/cite&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;But since everything to make a machine is earth-bound as is their intelligence, youc an either believe that they are without souls, or that their souls are manufactured. Either way, there&amp;#39;s no connection to any sort of divine, and so there&amp;#39;s no link to the heavenly plane. When a machine would break, that material soul, if it exists, simply decomposes. &lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;You could say&amp;nbsp;something similar&amp;nbsp;about humans.&amp;nbsp; My sentience is contained in my earth-bound, physical body.&amp;nbsp; How&amp;nbsp;could a human be connected to the divine, in a way that a non-human sentient being wouldn&amp;#39;t be?&amp;nbsp; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;nbsp;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;nbsp;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Illyria&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;Because, that which is created by man is but a shadow of what is created by God. Man is God&amp;#39;s favorite, he gives us a place above all others, and that includes whatever we might create.&lt;br /&gt;</description>
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<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jun 2008 06:12:16 GMT</pubDate>
<author>ShiXinFeng</author>
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<title>Re:All Machines go to Heaven?</title>
<description>&lt;p&gt;There is an entire &lt;b&gt;universe&lt;/b&gt; out there...&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;And the discussion here can&amp;#39;t even stick the &lt;i&gt;thread. &lt;/i&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;We are pitiful.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
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<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jun 2008 11:33:18 GMT</pubDate>
<author>TheShickle</author>
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<title>Re:All Machines go to Heaven?</title>
<description>We can&amp;#39;t stick something that doesn&amp;#39;t exist&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Good and evil are all concepts of human thought designed to control by fear, when people become too weak minded to stand up for themselves.&lt;br /&gt;Heaven and Hell are extensions of the fear, and inherent need for control that most humans have. Just because humans think of heaven , hell and an afterlife then exiles and machines would likewise believe in such things doesn&amp;#39;t make much sense if it&amp;#39;s all a product of human imagination to be thinking of such things in the first place. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;On a sidenote to all of this...&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;There is no good or evil. everything boils down to choices and consequences. What makes certain things appear to be evil is the collective subconscious of the people observing such events.&lt;br /&gt;</description>
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<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jun 2008 12:31:57 GMT</pubDate>
<author>ViralMarauder</author>
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<title>Re:All Machines go to Heaven?</title>
<description>&lt;cite&gt;ViralMarauder wrote:&lt;/cite&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;We can&amp;#39;t stick something that doesn&amp;#39;t exist&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Good and evil are all concepts of human thought designed to control by fear, when people become too weak minded to stand up for themselves.&lt;br /&gt;Heaven and Hell are extensions of the fear, and inherent need for control that most humans have. Just because humans think of heaven , hell and an afterlife then exiles and machines would likewise believe in such things doesn&amp;#39;t make much sense if it&amp;#39;s all a product of human imagination to be thinking of such things in the first place. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;On a sidenote to all of this...&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;There is no good or evil. everything boils down to choices and consequences. What makes certain things appear to be evil is the collective subconscious of the people observing such events.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Agreed. Just like I believe there is a higher power of sorts...but I have no idea what to call it. So, if I were to go to heaven, sign me up. If I were to go to hell, my name is probably already somewhere on that roster.</description>
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<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jun 2008 13:38:55 GMT</pubDate>
<author>Lezel</author>
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<title>Re:All Machines go to Heaven?</title>
<description>&lt;cite&gt;Illyria22 wrote:&lt;/cite&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;cite&gt;Neoteny wrote:&lt;/cite&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;But since everything to make a machine is earth-bound as is their intelligence, youc an either believe that they are without souls, or that their souls are manufactured. Either way, there&amp;#39;s no connection to any sort of divine, and so there&amp;#39;s no link to the heavenly plane. When a machine would break, that material soul, if it exists, simply decomposes. &lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;You could say&amp;nbsp;something similar&amp;nbsp;about humans.&amp;nbsp; My sentience is contained in my earth-bound, physical body.&amp;nbsp; How&amp;nbsp;could a human be connected to the divine, in a way that a non-human sentient being wouldn&amp;#39;t be?&amp;nbsp; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;I don&amp;#39;t know, you tell me where human intelligence comes from, unless it&amp;#39;s present in both the sperm and egg or one of the two, and is always present from the moment that sex cell emerges in your biology. I don&amp;#39;t really think it works that way. I think there&amp;#39;s some moment in time that a life is called into existence, that an intelligence, a soul&amp;nbsp;is instantiated in the human body, meaning that it is not all self-contained within the vessel, as it would be within the Machine.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;But the mystery still surrounding the creation,&amp;nbsp;life, and death of the human being is not present for the machine. It was built by man -&amp;nbsp;every component, every process, every function is known. It&amp;#39;s just a more sophisticated computer. So to believe that a machine would go to heaven, you&amp;#39;d pretty much have to believe your laptop goes to heaven, too. Unless man would have discovered how to reach heaven, and programmed a machine to get there somehow. But I don&amp;#39;t really see that as a possibility.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;EDIT: Oh, and by the way, if you&amp;#39;re presupposing a belief in the Christian theology and the existence of heaven, then you are also presupposing the existence of good and evil and the difference between them. Furthermore, it&amp;#39;s foolish to say that there is only &amp;quot;choice and consequence.&amp;quot; How can there be a consequence without morality? You cannot determine what is right and what is wrong, and so consequence cannot be determined appropriately. Someone could have you beheaded for purchasing milk at the store. Or you could get a million dollars for blowing up a city block. Morality is the foundation of justice and justice is the foundation of consequence.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
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<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jun 2008 15:40:36 GMT</pubDate>
<author>Neoteny</author>
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<title>Re:All Machines go to Heaven?</title>
<description>&lt;cite&gt;ShiXinFeng wrote:&lt;/cite&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;Because, that which is created by man is but a shadow of what is created by God. Man is God&amp;#39;s favorite, he gives us a place above all others, and that includes whatever we might create.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;That argument is based on a particular philosophy, and therefore&amp;nbsp;it&amp;#39;s only effective if you&amp;#39;re trying to convince someone who shares that philosophy.&amp;nbsp; That&amp;#39;s not a part of everyone&amp;#39;s&amp;nbsp;personal set of beliefs, so it&amp;#39;s not an effective argument.&amp;nbsp;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;nbsp;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;cite&gt;Neoteny wrote:&lt;/cite&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;I don&amp;#39;t know, you tell me where human intelligence comes from, unless it&amp;#39;s present in both the sperm and egg or one of the two, and is always present from the moment that sex cell emerges in your biology. I don&amp;#39;t really think it works that way. I think there&amp;#39;s some moment in time that a life is called into existence, that an intelligence, a soul&amp;nbsp;is instantiated in the human body, meaning that it is not all self-contained within the vessel, as it would be within the Machine. &lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;There&amp;#39;s no way to prove one way or the other if this is true (about humans or any type of non-human intelligent beings).&amp;nbsp; Again, this is based on personal beliefs and feelings.&amp;nbsp; Maybe there is something inherent in self-awareness or sentience that automatically transcends the vessel it&amp;#39;s within.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;nbsp;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;cite&gt;Neoteny wrote:&lt;/cite&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;But the mystery still surrounding the creation,&amp;nbsp;life, and death of the human being is not present for the machine. It was built by man -&amp;nbsp;every component, every process, every function is known. It&amp;#39;s just a more sophisticated computer. So to believe that a machine would go to heaven, you&amp;#39;d pretty much have to believe your laptop goes to heaven, too. Unless man would have discovered how to reach heaven, and programmed a machine to get there somehow. But I don&amp;#39;t really see that as a possibility.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;In vitro fertilization leads to children that are &amp;#39;built&amp;#39; by man.&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;Is a child that results from IVF less of a person&amp;nbsp;than someone conceived naturally, just because it was engineered by someone in&amp;nbsp;a lab?&amp;nbsp; Or, what about an early embryo that splits into two separate ones?&amp;nbsp; If it happens on its own the children are identical twins, but if it was done purposefully the children aren&amp;#39;t quite equal to the others?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Like I said before, maybe there is something inherent in self-awareness or sentience that automatically transcends the vessel that contains it.&amp;nbsp; And since there&amp;#39;s no way to prove it one way or the other, I&amp;#39;d rather give any other sentient beings out there the benefit of the doubt.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;nbsp;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;nbsp;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Illyria&lt;/p&gt;</description>
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<pubDate>Tue, 1 Jul 2008 14:38:30 GMT</pubDate>
<author>Illyria22</author>
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<title>Re:All Machines go to Heaven?</title>
<description>&lt;p&gt;*Shrug*&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;In vitro&amp;#39;s just doing the same process but outside of the body for a bit, until it&amp;#39;s placed in the body. There&amp;#39;s no evidence for or against the start of life (as previously described) outside the body or inside the body in such a situation.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;And yeah, these are biased things, based on particular theologies because we&amp;#39;re talking about heaven, which is a theological concept within the Jewish/Christian/Islamic faith. So there are certain components which can be ruled in and out. That&amp;#39;s how I&amp;#39;m approaching it, not with my personal beliefs. But I would say that since the machines were absolutely and entirely verifiably created by man, that accounts for there being nother transcendant about their intelligence or their components, whereas there is human mystery. And in this case, there is a way to prove it, since man would have had all of the schematics for the Machines, yet there is no blueprint for mankind hanging around anywhere within our sight. So man would have a possibility, whereas the Machines would not. That&amp;#39;s just how it works.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;So it&amp;#39;s unlikely that they&amp;#39;d subscribe to any one of those heaven-believing faiths, and would likely substitute their own through some means. Within the human-machine community before the first war, I&amp;#39;d bet this was a great divide and the subject of much controversy, though.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
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<pubDate>Tue, 1 Jul 2008 15:48:21 GMT</pubDate>
<author>Neoteny</author>
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<title>Re:All Machines go to Heaven?</title>
<description>&lt;cite&gt;Neoteny wrote:&lt;/cite&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;*Shrug*&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;In vitro&amp;#39;s just doing the same process but outside of the body for a bit, until it&amp;#39;s placed in the body. There&amp;#39;s no evidence for or against the start of life (as previously described) outside the body or inside the body in such a situation.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;And yeah, these are biased things, based on particular theologies because we&amp;#39;re talking about heaven, which is a theological concept within the Jewish/Christian/Islamic faith. So there are certain components which can be ruled in and out. That&amp;#39;s how I&amp;#39;m approaching it, not with my personal beliefs. But I would say that since the machines were absolutely and entirely verifiably created by man, that accounts for there being nother transcendant about their intelligence or their components, whereas there is human mystery. And in this case, there is a way to prove it, since man would have had all of the schematics for the Machines, yet there is no blueprint for mankind hanging around anywhere within our sight. So man would have a possibility, whereas the Machines would not. That&amp;#39;s just how it works.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;So it&amp;#39;s unlikely that they&amp;#39;d subscribe to any one of those heaven-believing faiths, and would likely substitute their own through some means. Within the human-machine community before the first war, I&amp;#39;d bet this was a great divide and the subject of much controversy, though.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;They certainly wouldn&amp;#39;t follow the Abrahamic theology (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam), since that requires an anthropomorphic God, it wouldn&amp;#39;t make any sense.&amp;nbsp; I agree with Illyria22, self-awareness or sentience is a prerequisite for possible transcendence.&amp;nbsp; What form that would take, I have no idea.&amp;nbsp; And the Dharmic religions would probably contest&amp;nbsp;the prerequisite for sentience!&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp; So we are back at square one.</description>
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<pubDate>Tue, 1 Jul 2008 16:33:09 GMT</pubDate>
<author>Villemar_MxO</author>
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<title>All Machines go to Heaven?</title>
<description>Hybrids can solve this problem.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&amp;quot;I&amp;#39;m interested in one thing... the future. And believe me, I know - the only way to get there is together. &amp;quot;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;-The Oracle</description>
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<pubDate>Tue, 1 Jul 2008 18:22:41 GMT</pubDate>
<author>AqueousRei</author>
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<title>Re:All Machines go to Heaven?</title>
<description>&lt;cite&gt;Ballak wrote:&lt;/cite&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;quot;Please, don&amp;#39;t do this.&amp;quot;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;quot;You were afraid.&amp;quot;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;quot;Of course I am afraid.&amp;quot;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;quot;But you&amp;#39;ll be safe now, held in the arms of your god.&amp;quot;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;quot;Have my brothers taught you nothing? I know what waits for me, for all of us.&amp;quot;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;quot;If not your god, then what?&amp;quot;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;quot;Nothing. Nothing waits, and that is what I fear.&amp;quot;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;quot;You don&amp;#39;t believe?&amp;quot;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;quot;How could I, given what I know, what I&amp;#39;ve seen? A treasure, with the proof.&amp;quot;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;quot;Proof of what?&amp;quot;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;quot;That this life is all we have.&amp;quot;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;quot;Linger a while longer then, and tell me of the part you were to play.&amp;quot;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;quot;A blockade, by sea. To keep the fool king and queens from sending reinforcements, once we.. once we..&amp;quot;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;quot;Conquered the Holy Land?&amp;quot;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;quot;Freed it, you fool. From the tyranny of faith.&amp;quot;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;quot;Freedom? You worked to overthrow cities, control men&amp;#39;s minds. Murdered any who spoke against you.&amp;quot;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;quot;I followed my orders, believing in my cause. Same as you...&amp;quot;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;nbsp;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;nbsp;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;That game was a pure masterpiece on just the story alone.&lt;br /&gt;</description>
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<pubDate>Tue, 1 Jul 2008 18:35:45 GMT</pubDate>
<author>privaronT</author>
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<title>Re:All Machines go to Heaven?</title>
<description>&lt;p&gt;The &amp;#39;blueprint&amp;#39; for humanity is our DNA code.&amp;nbsp; There&amp;#39;s nothing in a DNA sequence that can be identified as the root of transcendence beyond our physical selves, yet&amp;nbsp;Neoteny&amp;nbsp;believes there is some mysterious quality we&amp;nbsp; have that other sentient beings don&amp;#39;t.&amp;nbsp; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Interesting.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;nbsp;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Illyria&lt;/p&gt;</description>
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<pubDate>Sun, 6 Jul 2008 11:37:40 GMT</pubDate>
<author>Illyria22</author>
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<title>Re:All Machines go to Heaven?</title>
<description>&lt;cite&gt;Illyria22 wrote:&lt;/cite&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;The &amp;#39;blueprint&amp;#39; for humanity is our DNA code.&amp;nbsp; There&amp;#39;s nothing in a DNA sequence that can be identified as the root of transcendence beyond our physical selves, yet&amp;nbsp;Neoteny&amp;nbsp;believes there is some mysterious quality we&amp;nbsp; have that other sentient beings don&amp;#39;t.&amp;nbsp; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Interesting.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;nbsp;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Illyria&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Or perhaps there is, we just haven&amp;#39;t found it yet?</description>
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<pubDate>Sun, 6 Jul 2008 13:18:58 GMT</pubDate>
<author>Ballak</author>
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<title>Re:All Machines go to Heaven?</title>
<description>&lt;cite&gt;Illyria22 wrote:&lt;/cite&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;The &amp;#39;blueprint&amp;#39; for humanity is our DNA code.&amp;nbsp; There&amp;#39;s nothing in a DNA sequence that can be identified as the root of transcendence beyond our physical selves, yet&amp;nbsp;Neoteny&amp;nbsp;believes there is some mysterious quality we&amp;nbsp; have that other sentient beings don&amp;#39;t.&amp;nbsp; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Interesting.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;And Christianity tells you that an invisible omnipotent God is watching everything you do and will judge you after you die and either banish you to heaven or hell, neither of which you&amp;#39;ve seen before. Not to mention the fact that he&amp;#39;s also three people, but still one - one figure being an underdescribed character known as the Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost and another that was mortal yet immortal and died, but was resurrected in an act which somehow absolved mankind of all of its sin, thus guaranteeing passage into heaven until at some seemingly random point, he brings everybody back to life (despite the fact that he guarantees eternal life in death) in order to judge them &lt;i&gt;again&lt;/i&gt;, this time without that whole &amp;quot;I died for you&amp;quot; thing, where most people will be thrown into a lake of fire but the rest will be brought into a mysterious new heaven and new earth, upon which there will be this place called New Jerusalem. Oh yeah, and before that, there&amp;#39;s the whole thing about four horsemen and a giant dragon with 7 heads destroying the world and whatnot. And that&amp;#39;s less than 1% of the stuff in the Bible.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;So, yeah, presupposing a belief in Christianity, I think believing that there&amp;#39;s a mysterious quality to humanity with a spiritual link is the least suspicious thing presented here. Beside that, I never said it was in the DNA. If DNA determined everything, clones would be exactly the same mentally as the clonee, as would products of incest. However, since there is still relatively little known about the human brain, especially in relation to thought processes, I don&amp;#39;t find it hard to believe that there&amp;#39;s a sort of divine link somewhere in there. Maybe it doesn&amp;#39;t exist until a few months into gestation when the brain has developed to a certain point - I wouldn&amp;#39;t be able to tell you. I don&amp;#39;t think anyone else would be able to, either. But DNA certainly does not account for the way people think.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;EDIT: And since there&amp;#39;s no such thing as other sentient beings, there&amp;#39;s no way we could really know. But given this imaginary situation with machines designed with artificial intelligence, we can say, definititively, that there is no link to the divine with them &lt;i&gt;since man would have had to design them&lt;/i&gt;. I.e. we know every little bit and piece of their machinery, software - you name it we know it. There is no &lt;i&gt;possibility&lt;/i&gt; that they have an ethereal link to another plane since everything was designed, created, and implemented on earth. The only possibility would be some left field theory that somebody discovered a spiritual link within the human body and somehow reverse engineered it so that it would be implemented within a machine. And really, do you think that&amp;#39;d be possible? Since I&amp;#39;m almost certain it&amp;#39;s not, I give the theoretical machines of the Matrix as much a chance of getting to heaven as I give your toaster.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
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<pubDate>Sun, 6 Jul 2008 15:42:31 GMT</pubDate>
<author>Neoteny</author>
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<title>Re:All Machines go to Heaven?</title>
<description>&lt;p&gt;But I&amp;#39;m not a Christian, and I don&amp;#39;t believe what it says in the Bible.&amp;nbsp; You&amp;#39;ll have to convince me, and people like me, that humans have&amp;nbsp;some special quality that other sentient beings can&amp;#39;t.&amp;nbsp; Is it because we&amp;#39;re organic, and therefore had no designer?&amp;nbsp; That argument fails -- a&amp;nbsp;blade of grass or a fly&amp;nbsp;is no more sentient than the toaster you spoke of.&amp;nbsp; We think, another sentient being would think.&amp;nbsp; I don&amp;#39;t see a difference, any more than I can see a difference between a Caucasian and an Asian or a man and a woman.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I have another question for those of&amp;nbsp; you who believe that only humans have this mysterious transcent quality (soul or spirit or whatever you want to call it).&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; When in our evolutionary history did humans gain this quality?&amp;nbsp; Was it when our ancestors first branched off from other primates and began evolving into what would lead to us, or was it sometime after that?&amp;nbsp; If so, when?&amp;nbsp; Is it only Homo sapiens that ever had souls, or did our direct ancestors have&amp;nbsp;them too?&amp;nbsp; If so,&amp;nbsp;how far back in our evolutionary line?&amp;nbsp; Homo habilis, Australopithicus, how about them?&amp;nbsp; Homo habilis made tools, after all -- they weren&amp;#39;t just animals acting on instinct.&amp;nbsp; And what about those relatives of our species whose evolutionary branches were dead ends?&amp;nbsp; Neandertals were obviously more than animals too, but they weren&amp;#39;t human.&amp;nbsp; Judging from the artifacts they left behind, they certainly seem to have been sentient.&amp;nbsp; Did they have&amp;nbsp;that mysterious transcendent quality too, just like the humans who lived at the same time?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;nbsp;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;nbsp;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Illyria&lt;/p&gt;</description>
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<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jul 2008 22:06:19 GMT</pubDate>
<author>Illyria22</author>
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<title>Re:All Machines go to Heaven?</title>
<description>&lt;cite&gt;Illyria22 wrote:&lt;/cite&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;But I&amp;#39;m not a Christian, and I don&amp;#39;t believe what it says in the Bible.&amp;nbsp; You&amp;#39;ll have to convince me, and people like me...&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;Then obviously nothing I say will convince you, and nothing in this thread is applicable to you. I don&amp;#39;t even understand why you bothered entering if aren&amp;#39;t going to try to address a Christian concept from a Christian point of view. Aside from that, I&amp;#39;ve already put forth satisfactory claim and support in my eyes. And I should once again mention that this isn&amp;#39;t necessarily what I believe, but what I believe the mixture of scripture and logic dictates, if there is a Abrahamic heaven.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;cite&gt;Illyria22 wrote:&lt;/cite&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;I have another question for those of&amp;nbsp; you who believe that only humans have this mysterious transcent quality (soul or spirit or whatever you want to call it).&amp;nbsp; &amp;nbsp; When in our evolutionary history did humans gain this quality?&amp;nbsp; Was it when our ancestors first branched off from other primates and began evolving into what would lead to us, or was it sometime after that?&amp;nbsp; If so, when?&amp;nbsp; Is it only Homo sapiens that ever had souls, or did our direct ancestors have&amp;nbsp;them too?&amp;nbsp; If so,&amp;nbsp;how far back in our evolutionary line?&amp;nbsp; Homo habilis, Australopithicus, how about them?&amp;nbsp; Homo habilis made tools, after all -- they weren&amp;#39;t just animals acting on instinct.&amp;nbsp; And what about those relatives of our species whose evolutionary branches were dead ends?&amp;nbsp; Neandertals were obviously more than animals too, but they weren&amp;#39;t human.&amp;nbsp; Judging from the artifacts they left behind, they certainly seem to have been sentient.&amp;nbsp; Did they have&amp;nbsp;that mysterious transcendent quality too, just like the humans who lived at the same time?&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;I personally believe that all living organic beings have souls and can enter heaven. I also believe that sentience is a somewhat relative concept formed by an an egoistic species that likes to see the other species of animal life on this planet as inferior. So the soul is and has been ever-present, and there was never a time that anything &amp;quot;gained&amp;quot; a soul, except at its instantiation. Which makes it hard to think of it as possible for any piece of hardware to have a soul, since that would pretty much require steel and silicon to have latent souls or something.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
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<pubDate>Sun, 13 Jul 2008 01:27:12 GMT</pubDate>
<author>Neoteny</author>
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<title>Re:All Machines go to Heaven?</title>
<description>Neo... Bane anyone? Again, hybrids solve this problem.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;cite&gt;&lt;/cite&gt;&lt;p&gt;Which makes it hard to think of it as possible for any piece of hardware to have a soul, since that would pretty &lt;br /&gt;much require steel and silicon to have latent souls or something.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
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<pubDate>Sun, 13 Jul 2008 10:33:08 GMT</pubDate>
<author>AqueousRei</author>
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<title>Re:Re:All Machines go to Heaven?</title>
<description>&lt;cite&gt;Neoteny wrote:&lt;/cite&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;Then obviously nothing I say will convince you, and nothing in this thread is applicable to you. I don&apos;t even understand why you bothered entering if aren&apos;t going to try to address a Christian concept from a Christian point of view. Aside from that, I&apos;ve already put forth satisfactory claim and support in my eyes. And I should once again mention that this isn&apos;t necessarily what I believe, but what I believe the mixture of scripture and logic dictates, if there is a Abrahamic heaven.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;nbsp;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;Lots of religions have a concept of an afterlife, though.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;nbsp;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;cite&gt;Neoteny wrote:&lt;/cite&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;I personally believe that all living organic beings have souls and can enter heaven. I also believe that sentience is a somewhat relative concept formed by an an egoistic species that likes to see the other species of animal life on this planet as inferior. So the soul is and has been ever-present, and there was never a time that anything &amp;quot;gained&amp;quot; a soul, except at its instantiation. Which makes it hard to think of it as possible for any piece of hardware to have a soul, since that would pretty much require steel and silicon to have latent souls or something.&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;The belief that all organic beings have souls is not a Christian belief.&amp;nbsp; (But I won&apos;t say that nothing in this thread is applicable to you because of this belief; I want to hear everyone&apos;s viewpoints on the subject.)&amp;nbsp; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;nbsp;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;nbsp;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Illyria&lt;/p&gt;</description>
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<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jul 2008 19:08:00 GMT</pubDate>
<author>Illyria22</author>
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<title>Re:All Machines go to Heaven?</title>
<description>&lt;p&gt;I am several things: I am a lapsed catholic, I am a amateur philosopher. I personally believe that everyone&apos;s opinions (and therefore religions) are just as good as the next person&apos;s. &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;My belief in the Afterlife is heavily convoluted, so I won&apos;t go into it.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I believe in the spirit and the soul. I believe that the soul is that little thing that sustains us when instinct and routine cannot. I believe that animals do have this trait. You hear stories about pets running across country, through rain and garbage to find their masters, or their pets saving their masters, or likewise. &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I also believe that things like Love and Hope and Faith (REAL Faith, meaning you know somethig exists because you know, not because someone told you there is) are all byproducts/criteria for these things.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Back to animals, go to a zoo, any zoo, you look at those animals that live there. Those are not the animals that exist in the wild, they have been domesticated, their spirits broken. Humans are like this too, you see the normal person, someone who is victim to routine and the will of others, there sould are broken, restrained. I say broken at best because I&apos;m also of the belief that the soul is damned difficult to kill.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;So, to the original point of this thread, if you follow this criteria, Machines (that is, Artificial Intelligence) could potentially have a soul.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I&apos;ll use the Matrix as an example: Smith had a soul, he even says it, he knew that he had to die at the end of the first movie, that it what was expected of him, but he was compelled not to, he chose (another thing that goes with a soul) to remain. In this regards, all the exiles (rogue AI&apos;s) have souls. So, if these offshoots of Machine AI can have a soul, by definition the Machines have them too, just restrained by routine.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;So yeah, that&apos;s my criteria for anything that has a soul: the ability to choose to/and exceed instinct and routine. &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;nbsp;&lt;/p&gt;</description>
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<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jul 2008 19:49:05 GMT</pubDate>
<author>Shadow Griever</author>
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<title>Re:All Machines go to Heaven?</title>
<description>&lt;p&gt;They all go to the source, i supose thats there heaven.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
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<pubDate>Sun, 10 Aug 2008 06:49:11 GMT</pubDate>
<author>kaosdevil</author>
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<title>Re: All Machines go to Heaven?</title>
<description>&lt;cite&gt;Neoteny wrote:&lt;/cite&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;cite&gt;&lt;/cite&gt;I personally believe that all living organic beings have souls and can enter heaven. I also believe that sentience is a somewhat relative concept formed by an an egoistic species that likes to see the other species of animal life on this planet as inferior. So the soul is and has been ever-present, and there was never a time that anything &amp;quot;gained&amp;quot; a soul, except at its instantiation. Which makes it hard to think of it as possible for any piece of hardware to have a soul, since that would pretty much require steel and silicon to have latent souls or something.&lt;/blockquote&gt;I see you and raise you this: the emergence of true AI disproves the existence of souls in anyone.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Occam&apos;s razor. If a &lt;i&gt;sentience&lt;/i&gt; can be created through--or is emergent from--the technologies of man, then souls become a superfluous concept and can be disregarded entirely. If sentient machines are created without them, and are just as intelligent, concious and sentient as we are, then they clearly don&apos;t need souls to be alive. By extension then, neither do we, and we can move past superstitious frivolities and into more practical and realistic (and therefore productive) concepts of reality.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I don&apos;t believe in souls, and I think artificial sentience is a matter of time.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;/as</description>
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<pubDate>Mon, 11 Aug 2008 11:02:21 GMT</pubDate>
<author>Asna</author>
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