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<title>Latest posts for the topic &quot;[10.1.1] ...and who knows about Carlyne - Recursion - 4/8/08&quot;</title>
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<description>Latest messages posted in the topic &quot;[10.1.1] ...and who knows about Carlyne - Recursion - 4/8/08&quot;</description>
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<title>Re:[10.1.1] ...and who knows about Carlyne - Recursion - 4/8/08</title>
<description>&lt;cite&gt;Illyria22 wrote:&lt;/cite&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;And saying we&amp;#39;re not the same humanity as the ones in the original war makes no sense.&amp;nbsp; It&amp;#39;s like saying we&amp;#39;re not the same species as the people who colonized North America.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;Intelligence and experience describe your first sentence, ignorance befalls the other. I just can&amp;#39;t.. explain why these two sentences make you look stupid. It&amp;#39;s just too easy; far too easy.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Neoteny agrees that man and machine shouldn&amp;#39;t fight, yet you bicker with him. He simply thinks man could persevere forever, he did not say peacefully. You pick apart his points unintelligently; and this was not directed only at you Illyria.&lt;br /&gt;</description>
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<pubDate>Sun, 20 Apr 2008 02:11:06 GMT</pubDate>
<author>Roukan</author>
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<title>Re:[10.1.1] ...and who knows about Carlyne - Recursion - 4/8/08</title>
<description>You cannot deny Human nature and that nature is conflict and domination. How many weapons has it made for the purposes of killing itself? What has stopped it? A handful of Humans who have argued for peace and, in the latter half of history, deterrents such as nuclear, chemical, biological and radiological weapons threatening to wipe out all of Humanity. Do you think that destroying the Machines will destroy Merovingian Operatives and Machinist Operatives? &lt;br /&gt;We&amp;#39;re all going to be after the same precious few resources, with few people and fewer resources, conflict is inevitable, struggles for power over the resources are highly likely. The only thing that keeps factions together is a common foe. What happens when that foe is brought to its knees? Internal power struggles and conflict until there are but a few survivors in which case the enemy is time and the limited gene pool. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Suggesting anything else is simply ignorant of Human nature, a nature which has shown no signs of change regardless of situation.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Perhaps you &lt;i&gt;should&lt;/i&gt; try to explain why Roukan, it&amp;#39;s far too easy to rubbish someone&amp;#39;s point without explaining why.&lt;br /&gt;</description>
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<pubDate>Sun, 20 Apr 2008 09:26:27 GMT</pubDate>
<author>Croesis</author>
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<title>Re:[10.1.1] ...and who knows about Carlyne - Recursion - 4/8/08</title>
<description>&lt;p&gt;You don&amp;#39;t get it.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;We&amp;#39;re already in a &amp;quot;conflict;&amp;quot; more than that, we&amp;#39;re in a war. We have &lt;b&gt;no&lt;/b&gt; access to any such resources.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Maybe you don&amp;#39;t understand this because you&amp;#39;re on the other side and you&amp;#39;ve never had to worry about being killed by them in either the Real or the Matrix. But for us, &lt;b&gt;it doesn&amp;#39;t get any worse than it is right now.&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I realize that without the Matrix, there is no purpose for Merovingian operatives and Cypherites. I realize that without the Machines, there is no purpose for Machinists, and no war for E Pluribus Neo to fight. Only the unified cause of humanity would remain. The cause of living the best life possible. The cause of making the best of the environment and founding a society. Would there be struggle? Sure. If there is not one struggle, there is another. I believe any struggle that might result&amp;nbsp;from a human conflict would be on much lower scale than the battle we are locked into against our will right now. In any human conflict there is, at least, room for discussion.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I am not so fatalistic as you - that is, I do not believe in human nature, or any form of determinism when it comes to the thoughts or actions of man. Perhaps you have been a Machinist operative for too long, and have come to associate the behaviors of the machines, those that are formed through absolute logic, the result of thousands of subroutines compounding variables through mathematical equations coming to one, and only one possible outcome, with the behaviors of man.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I do not believe in &amp;quot;human nature&amp;quot; - it implies that we are without a choice in our behaviors, and that we have no responsibility for our actions. Truly, if you &lt;i&gt;do&lt;/i&gt; believe in &amp;quot;human nature,&amp;quot; you must concede that we could not help but create New Zion. It was the only course of action our &amp;quot;human nature&amp;quot; would allow.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;But moreover, the presence of at least five clear subdivisions among human alignments in this war proves the impotence of &amp;quot;human nature&amp;quot; - after all, if human nature existed, we would all act as one hive mind on one side, and there would be no more than one human organization.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;There is always a choice. At least, among humanity. We need only&amp;nbsp;make it&amp;nbsp;to the point where we may make that choice.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;As you say &amp;quot;you will destroy yourselves,&amp;quot; I say we will have the choice. As I say &amp;quot;they will destroy us,&amp;quot; I know that this is an absolute.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I would rather have the option to die than have it forced upon me.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
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<pubDate>Sun, 20 Apr 2008 15:29:27 GMT</pubDate>
<author>Neoteny</author>
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<title>Re:[10.1.1] ...and who knows about Carlyne - Recursion - 4/8/08</title>
<description>&lt;cite&gt;Vinia wrote:&lt;/cite&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;You cannot deny Human nature and that nature is conflict and domination. How many weapons has it made for the purposes of killing itself? What has stopped it? A handful of Humans who have argued for peace and, in the latter half of history, deterrents such as nuclear, chemical, biological and radiological weapons threatening to wipe out all of Humanity. Do you think that destroying the Machines will destroy Merovingian Operatives and Machinist Operatives? &lt;br /&gt;We&amp;#39;re all going to be after the same precious few resources, with few people and fewer resources, conflict is inevitable, struggles for power over the resources are highly likely. The only thing that keeps factions together is a common foe. What happens when that foe is brought to its knees? Internal power struggles and conflict until there are but a few survivors in which case the enemy is time and the limited gene pool. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Suggesting anything else is simply ignorant of Human nature, a nature which has shown no signs of change regardless of situation.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Perhaps you &lt;i&gt;should&lt;/i&gt; try to explain why Roukan, it&amp;#39;s far too easy to rubbish someone&amp;#39;s point without explaining why.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;The why to what? I never said humans wouldn&amp;#39;t cause conflict with each other when the Machines are gone. I&amp;#39;m not even voting for the Machines to be destroyed. I like some of them. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Let me try explaining what I meant by Illyria&amp;#39;s sentences. Her first one was incorrect, because we are not the same humanity from the original war. We&amp;#39;ve seen different things, we eat differently. We know their mistakes, but our blind to see our own; most of us anyway. The second is just a stupid comparison. Knowledge compared to species? No *poop* we&amp;#39;re the same species, but that doesn&amp;#39;t mean we&amp;#39;re the same people.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;</description>
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<pubDate>Sun, 20 Apr 2008 15:43:55 GMT</pubDate>
<author>Roukan</author>
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<title>Re:[10.1.1] ...and who knows about Carlyne - Recursion - 4/8/08</title>
<description>&lt;cite&gt;Neoteny wrote:&lt;/cite&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;I do not believe in &amp;quot;human nature&amp;quot; - it implies that we are without a choice in our behaviors, and that we have no responsibility for our actions. Truly, if you &lt;i&gt;do&lt;/i&gt; believe in &amp;quot;human nature,&amp;quot; you must concede that we could not help but create New Zion. It was the only course of action our &amp;quot;human nature&amp;quot; would allow.&lt;p&gt;But moreover, the presence of at least five clear subdivisions among human alignments in this war proves the impotence of &amp;quot;human nature&amp;quot; - after all, if human nature existed, we would all act as one hive mind on one side, and there would be no more than one human organization.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;I am referring to the suggestion of resources if Zion or EPN somehow manages to destroy the Machines, you said Humans will survive and find resources, I say that if they do or not Humankind, in those small numbers, will not be able to survive, not just due to it&amp;#39;s own social factors but due to environmental factors also. &lt;br /&gt;Human history shows us the nature of man, you can choose to believe it or not. That nature does &lt;i&gt;not&lt;/i&gt; determine what people do, it merely &lt;i&gt;influences&lt;/i&gt; it especially when it comes to resources, but there are a few examples of a person or group of people attaining peace... for a time. The clear divisions of the five factions shows that this nature is in effect, competing with each other, fighting over ideas and resources. With the Machines gone conflict within each faction will only increase.&lt;br /&gt;</description>
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<pubDate>Sun, 20 Apr 2008 15:50:08 GMT</pubDate>
<author>Croesis</author>
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<title>Re:[10.1.1] ...and who knows about Carlyne - Recursion - 4/8/08</title>
<description>&lt;cite&gt;Roukan wrote:&lt;/cite&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;cite&gt;&lt;/cite&gt;Let me try explaining what I meant by Illyria&amp;#39;s sentences. Her first one was incorrect, because we are not the same humanity from the original war. We&amp;#39;ve seen different things, we eat differently. We know their mistakes, but our blind to see our own; most of us anyway. The second is just a stupid comparison. Knowledge compared to species? No *poop* we&amp;#39;re the same species, but that doesn&amp;#39;t mean we&amp;#39;re the same people.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;Illyria didn&amp;#39;t say we&amp;#39;re the same people she said we&amp;#39;re the same humanity as in the species, Mankind. Experience doesn&amp;#39;t change the fact that we&amp;#39;re the same species. Humanity doesn&amp;#39;t mean experience. We are what we are, the only difference between the humans in the original war and now is experience and time, apart from that we are still the same species both are humanity. As for your first comment, my previous post that you quoted wasn&amp;#39;t just directed at you.&lt;br /&gt;</description>
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<pubDate>Sun, 20 Apr 2008 15:57:55 GMT</pubDate>
<author>Croesis</author>
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<title>Re:[10.1.1] ...and who knows about Carlyne - Recursion - 4/8/08</title>
<description>It would seem that words are wasted on you when you look at only&amp;nbsp;a small portion of what is said and miss the larger point.</description>
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<pubDate>Sun, 20 Apr 2008 16:29:10 GMT</pubDate>
<author>Neoteny</author>
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<title>Re:[10.1.1] ...and who knows about Carlyne - Recursion - 4/8/08</title>
<description>&lt;cite&gt;Neoteny wrote:&lt;/cite&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;It would seem that words are wasted on you when you look at only&amp;nbsp;a small portion of what is said and miss the larger point.&lt;/blockquote&gt;As you can see my post was edited, this was done to add a small quote of yours merely to indicate that it was in response to your post and not Roukan&amp;#39;s who posted before I did. He mistook my response to an earlier post of yours as a response to his and thus I edited my post to show it was as a response to yours, I did not want to quote the whole post if all I was doing is indicating to whom I was responding to. As &lt;i&gt;for&lt;/i&gt; my post I believe I took in the essential points and provided my own feed back on them, if I had missed a major point, please let me know but as far as I can tell, you&amp;#39;re suggesting that Humankind can survive and prosper without the Machines and I believe that, with what we see of the nature of humanity toward itself, it will struggle to do so, a struggle more difficult than the one you have against the Machines. This is another example of something that neither of us can convince the other of.&lt;br /&gt;</description>
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<pubDate>Sun, 20 Apr 2008 16:36:59 GMT</pubDate>
<author>Croesis</author>
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<title>Re:[10.1.1] ...and who knows about Carlyne - Recursion - 4/8/08</title>
<description>&lt;p&gt;No, you missed the point I made about there being but one cause &lt;i&gt;without&lt;/i&gt; the Machines and the Matrix. That Machinists, Merovingians, Cypherites, EPN, Zion, even, would fall away. You missed the point I made about the possibility, nay, probability of a brighter future without the Machines, without the Matrix. You missed the point where I said that this is about as bad as it gets.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;And obviously, you missed the point that we are already in a war, and that the &lt;i&gt;possibility&lt;/i&gt; of conflict is far more comforting than the assurance of already being in one.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
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<pubDate>Sun, 20 Apr 2008 16:53:36 GMT</pubDate>
<author>Neoteny</author>
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<title>Re:[10.1.1] ...and who knows about Carlyne - Recursion - 4/8/08</title>
<description>So you think that with the Machines gone there would be no more fighting all thinking of Humankind as one? All the factions are too far gone to just up and be friends. You think things are bad now, what about when each faction starts tearing itself apart due to internal conflict? Or when the the factions start to raid each other for the precious few resources. There is no probability of a bright future without the Machines.&lt;br /&gt;</description>
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<pubDate>Sun, 20 Apr 2008 17:05:58 GMT</pubDate>
<author>Croesis</author>
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<title>Re:[10.1.1] ...and who knows about Carlyne - Recursion - 4/8/08</title>
<description>&lt;p&gt;Neoteny, if we all woke up one day and the Machines and the Matrix&amp;nbsp;were gone, humanity wouldn&amp;#39;t come together under any unified cause.&amp;nbsp; There would be power grabs, people trying to set themselves up as an elite, just like in any other human society.&amp;nbsp; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Oh, and there would &lt;i&gt;definitely&lt;/i&gt; be no uniting with Zion or EPN, if they had anything to do with why the Machines were gone.&amp;nbsp; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;nbsp;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Illyria&lt;/p&gt;</description>
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<pubDate>Sun, 20 Apr 2008 17:30:07 GMT</pubDate>
<author>Illyria22</author>
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<title>Re:[10.1.1] ...and who knows about Carlyne - Recursion - 4/8/08</title>
<description>&lt;p&gt;Aww... That wasn&amp;#39;t nice.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;lt;/3&lt;/p&gt;</description>
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<pubDate>Sun, 20 Apr 2008 17:39:21 GMT</pubDate>
<author>Pyraci</author>
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<title>Re:[10.1.1] ...and who knows about Carlyne - Recursion - 4/8/08</title>
<description>&lt;p&gt;Jesus, you really think that was what I was saying?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;No - it&amp;#39;s just that there&amp;#39;s no more cause for conflict among men without the Matrix or the Machines. What&amp;#39;s a Machinist without the Machines? There would be no causes.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Anything anyone would conceive of fighting over would be over trivial differences that once existed, or trivial differences that would come up in the future. If you wouldn&amp;#39;t want peace in that situation, that&amp;#39;s your perogative. But the human cause would be the only one &lt;i&gt;left&lt;/i&gt;.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Would there be conflict? Yes, I have never denied this. But it would &lt;i&gt;certainly&lt;/i&gt; be better than the absolute stranglehold we are currently in.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The possibility of violence is weighs less to me on the scale of&amp;nbsp;fear than the assurance of violence.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
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<pubDate>Sun, 20 Apr 2008 21:32:59 GMT</pubDate>
<author>Neoteny</author>
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<title>Re:[10.1.1] ...and who knows about Carlyne - Recursion - 4/8/08</title>
<description>&lt;cite&gt;Neoteny wrote:&lt;/cite&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;Jesus, you really think that was what I was saying?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;b&gt;No - it&amp;#39;s just that there&amp;#39;s no more cause for conflict among men without the Matrix or the Machines&lt;/b&gt;. What&amp;#39;s a Machinist without the Machines? There would be no causes.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Anything anyone would conceive of fighting over would be over trivial differences that once existed, or trivial differences that would come up in the future. &lt;i&gt;If you wouldn&amp;#39;t want peace in that situation, that&amp;#39;s your perogative&lt;/i&gt;. But the human cause would be the only one &lt;i&gt;left&lt;/i&gt;.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;b&gt;Would there be conflict? Yes, I have never denied this.&lt;/b&gt; But it would &lt;i&gt;certainly&lt;/i&gt; be better than the absolute stranglehold we are currently in.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The possibility of violence is weighs less to me on the scale of&amp;nbsp;fear than the assurance of violence.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;Your two statements here contradict themselves. With little resources left there would most definitely be cause for conflict. As Illyria says humanity wouldn&amp;#39;t come together under any unified cause.&amp;nbsp; There would be internal disputes for leadership, people trying to control resources for their own group of people, just like in any other human society.&amp;nbsp;This has been seen time and time again especially over precious resources that don&amp;#39;t extend to everyone. &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Zion will be the biggest force holding almost all the resources, power, water, food... Funny how you say&amp;nbsp;simply about everyone else wanting&amp;nbsp;peace when you&amp;#39;re the one holding all the cards isn&amp;#39;t it, do you not see any similarities with the current situation?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;If the possiblity of violance is preferred over assurance of violance, why was New Zion built? There was no assurance of violance then, distrust certainly, but Zion wasn&amp;#39;t attacked by the Machines until it broke the truce.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
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<pubDate>Mon, 21 Apr 2008 02:09:55 GMT</pubDate>
<author>Croesis</author>
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<title>Re:[10.1.1] ...and who knows about Carlyne - Recursion - 4/8/08</title>
<description>&lt;cite&gt;Illyria22 wrote:&lt;/cite&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;Neoteny, if we all woke up one day and the Machines and the Matrix&amp;nbsp;were gone, humanity wouldn&amp;#39;t come together under any unified cause.&amp;nbsp; There would be power grabs, people trying to set themselves up as an elite, just like in any other human society.&amp;nbsp; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Oh, and there would &lt;i&gt;definitely&lt;/i&gt; be no uniting with Zion or EPN, if they had anything to do with why the Machines were gone.&amp;nbsp; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;nbsp;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Illyria&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;Some would try to lead for the right reasons, some would try to lead for the power, the others would watch the ensuing battle.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;To Vinia:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;cite&gt;Neoteny wrote:&lt;/cite&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;It would seem that words are wasted on you when you look at only&amp;nbsp;a small portion of what is said and miss the larger point.&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I have said my dues, and will now no longer waste time on this... debate.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;</description>
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<pubDate>Mon, 21 Apr 2008 03:27:11 GMT</pubDate>
<author>Roukan</author>
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<title>Re:[10.1.1] ...and who knows about Carlyne - Recursion - 4/8/08</title>
<description>&lt;p&gt;I said there would be no &lt;i&gt;cause&lt;/i&gt; not that there would be no &lt;i&gt;conflict&lt;/i&gt;. Conflict occurs each day without cause.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;And, I will tell you for what is likely to be the billionth time that we never broke the Truce. And therefore, we never knew that building a city with &lt;b&gt;proven defensive-only&lt;/b&gt; structures would trigger an onset of Machine hostilities. We are incapable of attack on such a grand scale, and this has been proven over the course of nearly a year.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;We did however &lt;i&gt;suppose&lt;/i&gt; that the Machines might initiate hostilities because they didn&amp;#39;t like the idea of us having a fortified city beyond the reaches of their attacks, which is why the building operation was kept secret. However, we also &lt;i&gt;supposed&lt;/i&gt; that the army of 500,000 sentinels hovering just outside the old city might one day swipe down and destroy our old city on a whim, or because we did something the Machines didn&amp;#39;t like and we just hadn&amp;#39;t realized it. In such a situation, the need for survival took precedence, and the weight of absolute protection outweighed the mere possibility of it (I&amp;#39;m not even going to say probability with the way we&amp;#39;d been attacked by Machine-sponsored Cypherites &lt;i&gt;during&lt;/i&gt; the Truce). As Niobe said, we had to move because they had us dead to rights. And they knew it, and they took advantage of it.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;And I&amp;#39;m going to stop making replies to your rather not only ridiculous, but pessimistic and warmongering attempts at speculating the future of the human race. I realize that this is going nowhere new, now, because there is a thread from ages ago with a million quotes in lots of pretty colors that you can re-read if you really want to know stances about the construction of New Zion and the like.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;But know this: If you really want a conflict even without the Machines, without the Matrix? I can most certainly make sure you&amp;#39;re dead enough that you won&amp;#39;t cause it.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
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<pubDate>Mon, 21 Apr 2008 03:43:06 GMT</pubDate>
<author>Neoteny</author>
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<title>Re:[10.1.1] ...and who knows about Carlyne - Recursion - 4/8/08</title>
<description>&lt;cite&gt;Illyria22 wrote:&lt;/cite&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;Neoteny, if we all woke up one day and the Machines and the Matrix&amp;nbsp;were gone, humanity wouldn&amp;#39;t come together under any unified cause.&amp;nbsp; There would be power grabs, people trying to set themselves up as an elite, just like in any other human society.&amp;nbsp; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Oh, and there would &lt;i&gt;definitely&lt;/i&gt; be no uniting with Zion or EPN, if they had anything to do with why the Machines were gone.&amp;nbsp; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;nbsp;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Illyria&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;In this scenario, the only survivors would be Zion, New Zion and all the hovercrafts left to run on battery power until they run out of juice.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Without the Matrix, there is no power except in the two cities which are already established and fortified. There&amp;#39;s far less room for power grabs and far more room for&amp;nbsp;Zion and EPN (which have established leaderships and sustainable, protected cities in the real) to work together.&amp;nbsp;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Suddenly the Mervs, Machinists and Cypherites have nothing but the hovercrafts they are left stranded in. Join Zion or EPN, or die. Not even a unified attack would be capable of overtaking old Zion or New Zion.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The power grabs you predict simply can&amp;#39;t happen because the absence of the Matrix and the Machines in no way effects the established leadership of the two orgs who have total control of the only two cities in the real.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;nbsp;&lt;/p&gt;</description>
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<pubDate>Mon, 21 Apr 2008 04:11:13 GMT</pubDate>
<author>r3spon5e</author>
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<title>Re:[10.1.1] ...and who knows about Carlyne - Recursion - 4/8/08</title>
<description>&lt;cite&gt;Neoteny wrote:&lt;/cite&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;I said there would be no &lt;i&gt;cause&lt;/i&gt; not that there would be no &lt;i&gt;conflict&lt;/i&gt;. Conflict occurs each day without cause.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;And, I will tell you for what is likely to be the billionth time that we never broke the Truce. And therefore, we never knew that building a city with &lt;b&gt;proven defensive-only&lt;/b&gt; structures would trigger an onset of Machine hostilities. We are incapable of attack on such a grand scale, and this has been proven over the course of nearly a year.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;We did however &lt;i&gt;suppose&lt;/i&gt; that the Machines might initiate hostilities because they didn&amp;#39;t like the idea of us having a fortified city beyond the reaches of their attacks, which is why the building operation was kept secret. However, we also &lt;i&gt;supposed&lt;/i&gt; that the army of 500,000 sentinels hovering just outside the old city might one day swipe down and destroy our old city on a whim, or because we did something the Machines didn&amp;#39;t like and we just hadn&amp;#39;t realized it. In such a situation, the need for survival took precedence, and the weight of absolute protection outweighed the mere possibility of it (I&amp;#39;m not even going to say probability with the way we&amp;#39;d been attacked by Machine-sponsored Cypherites &lt;i&gt;during&lt;/i&gt; the Truce). As Niobe said, we had to move because they had us dead to rights. And they knew it, and they took advantage of it.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;And I&amp;#39;m going to stop making replies to your rather not only ridiculous, but pessimistic and warmongering attempts at speculating the future of the human race. I realize that this is going nowhere new, now, because there is a thread from ages ago with a million quotes in lots of pretty colors that you can re-read if you really want to know stances about the construction of New Zion and the like.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;But know this: If you really want a conflict even without the Machines, without the Matrix? I can most certainly make sure you&amp;#39;re dead enough that you won&amp;#39;t cause it.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;Pfft, they say that threats are the discourse of a desperate mind.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Stop being so naive, conflict occurs each day, but why? There is never conflict without reason, revenge, tradition, greed... it&amp;#39;s all done for a reason even if that reason is because they want to or they can. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;As for your suggestion that Zion didn&amp;#39;t break the truce, you can suppose all you want, you had no evidence that the sentinels were going to suddenly start attacking. There is no doubt that there was no trust to begin with, Zion planned New Zion and the Machines deployed sentinels but the Machines didn&amp;#39;t attack and even used some of that 500,000 to assault the General, if they were that worried about Zion, they&amp;#39;d have created a lot more.&lt;br /&gt;There are two ways in which Zion may have broken the truce, either building a new city with fortified defences, defences better than Old Zion&amp;#39;s &lt;i&gt;or&lt;/i&gt; the fact that it was done in secret.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Some claim that you didn&amp;#39;t know the terms of the truce. Ignorance is no excuse, the Oracle hammered out the terms with the Architect after Neo&amp;#39;s sacrifice, did it not occur to you to find out from her if the act of creating New Zion was a breach? You could have even found out the entire list of terms for both Zion and the Machines to cure your worries and assumptions.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I&amp;#39;m fully aware of the thread about New Zion&amp;#39;s construction, I believe I was a major voice in it, perhaps you should read those comments in the pretty colours instead of ignoring them. My speculation of the future of the human race are not based on pessimism, I&amp;#39;m a realist, I don&amp;#39;t ignore the nature of man and it&amp;#39;s history, I&amp;#39;m not the one with my head in the clouds.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;</description>
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<pubDate>Mon, 21 Apr 2008 04:44:42 GMT</pubDate>
<author>Croesis</author>
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<title>Re:[10.1.1] ...and who knows about Carlyne - Recursion - 4/8/08</title>
<description>&lt;cite&gt;r3spon5e wrote:&lt;/cite&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;cite&gt;&lt;/cite&gt;In this scenario, the only survivors would be Zion, New Zion and all the hovercrafts left to run on battery power until they run out of juice.&lt;p&gt;Without the Matrix, there is no power except in the two cities which are already established and fortified. There&amp;#39;s far less room for power grabs and far more room for&amp;nbsp;Zion and EPN (which have established leaderships and sustainable, protected cities in the real) to work together.&amp;nbsp;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Suddenly the Mervs, Machinists and Cypherites have nothing but the hovercrafts they are left stranded in. Join Zion or EPN, or die. Not even a unified attack would be capable of overtaking old Zion or New Zion.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The power grabs you predict simply can&amp;#39;t happen because the absence of the Matrix and the Machines in no way effects the established leadership of the two orgs who have total control of the only two cities in the real.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;The power grabs that Illyria mentioned weren&amp;#39;t just about Mech, Merv and Cypherites, she was also talking about internal power struggles. Without&amp;nbsp; focus on the Machines, mankind will revert to how it&amp;#39;s always been in civilisation; crime, wealth, power. With power comes corruption. Suddenly working for the good of all Mankind reduces to the good of the few in each group over others. Basic instincts and nature, that is what influences people, there are always a few who ignore them but a great deal more who listen to them. Perhaps not at first not for a year or two, but it is inevitable.&lt;br /&gt;</description>
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<pubDate>Mon, 21 Apr 2008 04:53:29 GMT</pubDate>
<author>Croesis</author>
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<title>Re:[10.1.1] ...and who knows about Carlyne - Recursion - 4/8/08</title>
<description>&lt;cite&gt;Vinia wrote:&lt;/cite&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;cite&gt;r3spon5e wrote:&lt;/cite&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;cite&gt;&lt;/cite&gt;In this scenario, the only survivors would be Zion, New Zion and all the hovercrafts left to run on battery power until they run out of juice. &lt;p&gt;Without the Matrix, there is no power except in the two cities which are already established and fortified. There&amp;#39;s far less room for power grabs and far more room for&amp;nbsp;Zion and EPN (which have established leaderships and sustainable, protected cities in the real) to work together.&amp;nbsp;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Suddenly the Mervs, Machinists and Cypherites have nothing but the hovercrafts they are left stranded in. Join Zion or EPN, or die. Not even a unified attack would be capable of overtaking old Zion or New Zion.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The power grabs you predict simply can&amp;#39;t happen because the absence of the Matrix and the Machines in no way effects the established leadership of the two orgs who have total control of the only two cities in the real.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;The power grabs that Illyria mentioned weren&amp;#39;t just about Mech, Merv and Cypherites, she was also talking about internal power struggles. Without&amp;nbsp; focus on the Machines, mankind will revert to how it&amp;#39;s always been in civilisation; crime, wealth, power. With power comes corruption. Suddenly working for the good of all Mankind reduces to the good of the few in each group over others. Basic instincts and nature, that is what influences people, there are always a few who ignore them but a great deal more who listen to them. Perhaps not at first not for a year or two, but it is inevitable.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;So you and Illyria hope. &lt;/p&gt;</description>
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<pubDate>Mon, 21 Apr 2008 05:20:50 GMT</pubDate>
<author>r3spon5e</author>
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