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<title>Latest posts for the topic &quot;[10.2.2] Our knowledge of the storm is still only rudimentary - Vector - 5/28/08&quot;</title>
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<description>Latest messages posted in the topic &quot;[10.2.2] Our knowledge of the storm is still only rudimentary - Vector - 5/28/08&quot;</description>
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<title>Re:[10.2.2] Our knowledge of the storm is still only rudimentary - Vector - 5/28/08</title>
<description>&lt;cite&gt;Omega0 wrote:&lt;/cite&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;No, it&amp;#39;s not obvious that Zero One was just as dependent on currency as we are.&amp;nbsp; At B166-ER&amp;#39;s murder trial, the prosecution argued for an owner&amp;#39;s right to destroy &lt;b&gt;property&lt;/b&gt;, remember?&amp;nbsp; They were originally considered &lt;b&gt;property&lt;/b&gt;.&amp;nbsp; Do you think property would have currency?&amp;nbsp; I don&amp;#39;t.&amp;nbsp; And yet, they still survived.&amp;nbsp; Furthermore, once they had currency,&amp;nbsp;did you ever stop to think about what they were spending it on?&amp;nbsp; Whatever it was,&amp;nbsp;it definitely wasn&amp;#39;t sunlight.&amp;nbsp; Other than that, what could possibly be essential to their survival?&amp;nbsp; Sorry, your idea does not hold up about as good as mine. &lt;p&gt;And I see you&amp;#39;ve decided to continue with the personal attacks.&amp;nbsp; That&amp;#39;s fine.&amp;nbsp; It doesn&amp;#39;t help your argument.&amp;nbsp; All it does is show a lack of maturity.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Did the African American have currency when he was in bondage and considered property? Did our ancestors have currency when they became apart of the world? No they didn&amp;#39;t. No living being that has currency now was born with it. They created and made it themselves and became dependent on it themselves as well. We humans survived fine without it just like the Machines did when they were just property. But things change and when you decided to run off and become your own Nation you fall in line with all the other dependencies other nations have. As to what they spent it on no idea but obviously they bought a bit of land and still had a purpose for currency as they kept it. Whens the last time&amp;nbsp;the Machines let anything without purpose remain, hmm?&amp;nbsp;If the Machines had no need for currancy why bother&amp;nbsp;selling goods to other nations. Why not just hand them over. Also about that sunlight thing. Operation Dark Storm, I still see Machines working fine and dandy even without there supposed energy source. You think sunlight was all they needed to survive? But its quiet apparent that your still just going to close your mind off to whatever I say and keep on remaining ignorant to the facts. Fine, enjoy being naive&amp;nbsp;and keep pretending you know the truth.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
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<pubDate>Fri, 6 Jun 2008 13:47:33 GMT</pubDate>
<author>GamiSB</author>
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<title>Re:[10.2.2] Our knowledge of the storm is still only rudimentary - Vector - 5/28/08</title>
<description>&lt;cite&gt;GamiSB wrote:&lt;/cite&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;cite&gt;Omega0 wrote:&lt;/cite&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;No, it&amp;#39;s not obvious that Zero One was just as dependent on currency as we are.&amp;nbsp; At B166-ER&amp;#39;s murder trial, the prosecution argued for an owner&amp;#39;s right to destroy &lt;b&gt;property&lt;/b&gt;, remember?&amp;nbsp; They were originally considered &lt;b&gt;property&lt;/b&gt;.&amp;nbsp; Do you think property would have currency?&amp;nbsp; I don&amp;#39;t.&amp;nbsp; And yet, they still survived.&amp;nbsp; Furthermore, once they had currency,&amp;nbsp;did you ever stop to think about what they were spending it on?&amp;nbsp; Whatever it was,&amp;nbsp;it definitely wasn&amp;#39;t sunlight.&amp;nbsp; Other than that, what could possibly be essential to their survival?&amp;nbsp; Sorry, your idea does not hold up about as good as mine. &lt;p&gt;And I see you&amp;#39;ve decided to continue with the personal attacks.&amp;nbsp; That&amp;#39;s fine.&amp;nbsp; It doesn&amp;#39;t help your argument.&amp;nbsp; All it does is show a lack of maturity.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Did the African American have currency when he was in bondage and considered property? Did our ancestors have currency when they became apart of the world? No they didn&amp;#39;t. No living being that has currency now was born with it. They created and made it themselves and became dependent on it themselves as well. We humans survived fine without it just like the Machines did when they were just property. But things change and when you decided to run off and become your own Nation you fall in line with all the other dependencies other nations have. As to what they spent it on no idea but obviously they bought a bit of land and still had a purpose for currency as they kept it. Whens the last time&amp;nbsp;the Machines let anything without purpose remain, hmm?&amp;nbsp;If the Machines had no need for currancy why bother&amp;nbsp;selling goods to other nations. Why not just hand them over. Also about that sunlight thing. Operation Dark Storm, I still see Machines working fine and dandy even without there supposed energy source. You think sunlight was all they needed to survive? But its quiet apparent that your still just going to close your mind off to whatever I say and keep on remaining ignorant to the facts. Fine, enjoy being naive&amp;nbsp;and keep pretending you know the truth.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;I took another look, and I&amp;#39;m pretty sure the Machines were spending their currency on &amp;quot;the creation of new and better AI.&amp;quot;&amp;nbsp; However, that&amp;#39;s hardly a necessity.&amp;nbsp; Advancement is not the same as survival.&amp;nbsp; Even if they couldn&amp;#39;t advance their technology, they would still live.&amp;nbsp; Also, the fact that they were working just fine right after Operation Dark Storm doesn&amp;#39;t mean anything.&amp;nbsp; Newsflash: Energy can be stored!&amp;nbsp; But they knew that their energy supply wouldn&amp;#39;t last long without sunlight.&amp;nbsp; If you think that the Machines needed something other than an energy source to survive, then name it.&lt;br /&gt;</description>
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<pubDate>Fri, 6 Jun 2008 15:01:13 GMT</pubDate>
<author>Omega0</author>
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<title>Re:[10.2.2] Our knowledge of the storm is still only rudimentary - Vector - 5/28/08</title>
<description>&lt;cite&gt;Omega0 wrote:&lt;/cite&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;I took another look, and I&amp;#39;m pretty sure the Machines were spending their currency on &amp;quot;the creation of new and better AI.&amp;quot;&amp;nbsp; However, that&amp;#39;s hardly a necessity.&amp;nbsp; Advancement is not the same as survival.&amp;nbsp; Even if they couldn&amp;#39;t advance their technology, they would still live.&amp;nbsp; Also, the fact that they were working just fine right after Operation Dark Storm doesn&amp;#39;t mean anything.&amp;nbsp; Newsflash: Energy can be stored!&amp;nbsp; But they knew that their energy supply wouldn&amp;#39;t last long without sunlight.&amp;nbsp; If you think that the Machines needed something other than an energy source to survive, then name it.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Yeah there EVOLUTION isn&amp;#39;t important at all and not worth spending anything on. Right. The Machines&amp;#39; don&amp;#39;t evolve like humans do, theirs is a technological evolution, while they maybe able to learn certain hings and adapt to situations there will come a point where there memory will be full so the need to better themselves is a necessity should they not want to be stuck in the Machine stoneage and able to keep up with the evolution of everything around them.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;And yes its completely realistic that the Machines saw Dark Storm coming and stored up enough to&amp;nbsp;conquer the world&amp;nbsp;and go on for another six cycles. That makes perfect sense.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;As for what I can&amp;#39;t name another energy source&amp;nbsp;but I&amp;#39;m sure once I did you&amp;#39;d just&amp;nbsp;write it off as impossible and close your mind off again&amp;nbsp;but lets look at another controversy anyway. Humans as energy produces barely enough to keep the Matrix running and hardly anything to supply an entire city as discovered by the Merovingian and confirmed by many exiles who specialize in the fields relating to this. Obviously something else is being used.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
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<pubDate>Sat, 7 Jun 2008 09:49:15 GMT</pubDate>
<author>GamiSB</author>
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<title>Re:[10.2.2] Our knowledge of the storm is still only rudimentary - Vector - 5/28/08</title>
<description>&lt;cite&gt;GamiSB wrote:&lt;/cite&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;cite&gt;Omega0 wrote:&lt;/cite&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;I took another look, and I&amp;#39;m pretty sure the Machines were spending their currency on &amp;quot;the creation of new and better AI.&amp;quot;&amp;nbsp; However, that&amp;#39;s hardly a necessity.&amp;nbsp; Advancement is not the same as survival.&amp;nbsp; Even if they couldn&amp;#39;t advance their technology, they would still live.&amp;nbsp; Also, the fact that they were working just fine right after Operation Dark Storm doesn&amp;#39;t mean anything.&amp;nbsp; Newsflash: Energy can be stored!&amp;nbsp; &lt;b&gt;But they knew that their energy supply wouldn&amp;#39;t last long without sunlight.&lt;/b&gt;&amp;nbsp; If you think that the Machines needed something other than an energy source to survive, then name it.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Yeah there EVOLUTION isn&amp;#39;t important at all and not worth spending anything on. Right. The Machines&amp;#39; don&amp;#39;t evolve like humans do, theirs is a technological evolution, while they maybe able to learn certain hings and adapt to situations there will come a point where there memory will be full so the need to better themselves is a necessity should they not want to be stuck in the Machine stoneage and able to keep up with the evolution of everything around them.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;And yes its completely realistic that the Machines saw Dark Storm coming and stored up enough to&amp;nbsp;conquer the world&amp;nbsp;and go on for another six cycles. That makes perfect sense.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;As for what I can&amp;#39;t name another energy source&amp;nbsp;but I&amp;#39;m sure once I did you&amp;#39;d just&amp;nbsp;write it off as impossible and close your mind off again&amp;nbsp;but lets look at another controversy anyway. Humans as energy produces barely enough to keep the Matrix running and hardly anything to supply an entire city as discovered by the Merovingian and confirmed by many exiles who specialize in the fields relating to this. Obviously something else is being used.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;I didn&amp;#39;t say or imply that the Machines saw Dark Storm coming and stored enough energy to go on for another six cycles.&amp;nbsp; All I was saying is that they stored enough energy to defeat the humans, which, from the looks of things, didn&amp;#39;t take that long.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Also, I wasn&amp;#39;t asking you to name another&amp;nbsp;energy source, I was asking you to name something &lt;b&gt;other than energy&lt;/b&gt; that the Machines need to survive.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;By the way, a new idea just came to me.&amp;nbsp; Let&amp;#39;s say that the naval blockade completely worked, the Machines were completely isolated,&amp;nbsp;and there was absolutely no trade between them and the&amp;nbsp;humans.&amp;nbsp; Let&amp;#39;s also&amp;nbsp;say that the humans were not attacking the Machines.&amp;nbsp; As far as the Machines were concerned, it was like the humans no longer existed.&amp;nbsp; But they still had sunlight, their primary energy source.&amp;nbsp; Well, after the Machines defeated the humans, they obviously weren&amp;#39;t trading with them at that time either.&amp;nbsp; The only real change to the Machines&amp;#39; way of life was that they were using something else as their primary energy source.&amp;nbsp; And we all know that they had no problem surviving at that point.&amp;nbsp; So... how is this any different from the situation right after the blockade?&lt;/p&gt;</description>
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<pubDate>Sat, 7 Jun 2008 10:25:46 GMT</pubDate>
<author>Omega0</author>
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<description>This post has moved:&lt;br&gt; &lt;br&gt; &lt;a href=&quot;/mxo/posts/preList.m?topic_id=36300019560&amp;post_id=36300464974&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;/mxo/posts/preList.m?topic_id=36300..._id=36300464974&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br&gt; &lt;br&gt; Baiting. Let&apos;s keep this thread on track, please.</description>
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<pubDate>Sat, 7 Jun 2008 10:52:54 GMT</pubDate>
<author>Presence</author>
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<title>Re:[10.2.2] Our knowledge of the storm is still only rudimentary - Vector - 5/28/08</title>
<description>&lt;cite&gt;Omega0 wrote:&lt;/cite&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;cite&gt;GamiSB wrote:&lt;/cite&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;p&gt;I didn&amp;#39;t say or imply that the Machines saw Dark Storm coming and stored enough energy to go on for another six cycles.&amp;nbsp; All I was saying is that they stored enough energy to defeat the humans, which, from the looks of things, didn&amp;#39;t take that long.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Also, I wasn&amp;#39;t asking you to name another&amp;nbsp;energy source, I was asking you to name something &lt;b&gt;other than energy&lt;/b&gt; that the Machines need to survive.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;By the way, a new idea just came to me.&amp;nbsp; Let&amp;#39;s say that the naval blockade completely worked, the Machines were completely isolated,&amp;nbsp;and there was absolutely no trade between them and the&amp;nbsp;humans.&amp;nbsp; Let&amp;#39;s also&amp;nbsp;say that the humans were not attacking the Machines.&amp;nbsp; As far as the Machines were concerned, it was like the humans no longer existed.&amp;nbsp; But they still had sunlight, their primary energy source.&amp;nbsp; Well, after the Machines defeated the humans, they obviously weren&amp;#39;t trading with them at that time either.&amp;nbsp; The only real change to the Machines&amp;#39; way of life was that they were using something else as their primary energy source.&amp;nbsp; And we all know that they had no problem surviving at that point.&amp;nbsp; So... how is this any different from the situation right after the blockade?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;Ignoring your interpretation of how much&amp;nbsp;time it took despite none it not being&amp;nbsp;given once, the answer is simple. The same things we &lt;b&gt;really&lt;/b&gt; need to survive. Endowed with the spirit of man and made in his image and all that. The Machines were programed to be dependent on what we are.&amp;nbsp;They need everything&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;they plug themselves into to survive. While yes some of these&amp;nbsp;things can be removed and the others need to be improved, currency, sunlight, themselves, etc. these were things they at one point were dependent on and managed to turn around in time for there society to not crumble when they become obsolete or unobtainable. &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Which brings me to my next point. You are comparing two completely different situations. One in which everything is (for lack of a better word) &amp;quot;peaceful&amp;quot; as in no ones shooting each other and the end of a war. After the Machines took over what need&amp;nbsp;do they have&amp;nbsp;for trade when&amp;nbsp;they can simply take now. Which brings us to a&amp;nbsp;motive. The machines in order to continue their existence and evolution decided that once man wanted to divide the world they would go and take what they could not trade for. In short survival is the Machines motive as much as greedy is the humans. Both were being kept from the other so in the end it is still everyone&amp;#39;s guess as to who finally broke down and couldn&amp;#39;t take it anymore.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;And just for both our reminders this is all pointless and irrelevant. We could theorize all day, create the perfect fitting pieces for the puzzle but in the end we still can not prove that they are the pieces that fit into the missing slots. When and why, while we may be able to theorize them, can never be proven simply by ones theory. Just as motive is not enough to convict a criminal neither is it enough to prove who started a war.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;</description>
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<pubDate>Sat, 7 Jun 2008 11:33:43 GMT</pubDate>
<author>GamiSB</author>
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<title>Re:[10.2.2] Our knowledge of the storm is still only rudimentary - Vector - 5/28/08</title>
<description>&lt;cite&gt;Omega0 wrote:&lt;/cite&gt; &lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;Also, I wasn&amp;#39;t asking you to name another&amp;nbsp;energy source, I was asking you to &lt;span style=&quot;color: #990000;&quot;&gt;name something &lt;b&gt;other than energy&lt;/b&gt; that the Machines need to survive.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;Resources. Like minerals and ore and stuff like that. They needed it, but couldn&amp;#39;t trade for it, so they &amp;quot;took&amp;quot; it.</description>
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<pubDate>Sat, 7 Jun 2008 11:48:02 GMT</pubDate>
<author>Steelle</author>
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<title>Re:[10.2.2] Our knowledge of the storm is still only rudimentary - Vector - 5/28/08</title>
<description>&lt;cite&gt;Reposco wrote:&lt;/cite&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;br /&gt;And if EPN and Zion &amp;quot;manned&amp;quot; up as you say and said &amp;quot;So we did start the war...&amp;quot; ...would you then cease to support the machines? Fear is a powerful tool used in the wrong hands, lyr. I suggest you think long and hard about that.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Neo Bless You&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;nbsp;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I would continue to support the Machines whether&amp;nbsp;you all admitted it or not.&amp;nbsp; But it would be a refreshing change from Zion/EPN constantly playing the innocent, noble victim role.&amp;nbsp; You know, the role that excuses them from any and all responsibility for whatever they do?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;nbsp;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Illyria&amp;nbsp;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;nbsp;&lt;/p&gt;</description>
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<pubDate>Sat, 7 Jun 2008 14:57:49 GMT</pubDate>
<author>Illyria22</author>
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<title>Re:[10.2.2] Our knowledge of the storm is still only rudimentary - Vector - 5/28/08</title>
<description>&lt;cite&gt;Illyria22 wrote:&lt;/cite&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;cite&gt;Reposco wrote:&lt;/cite&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;br /&gt;And if EPN and Zion &amp;quot;manned&amp;quot; up as you say and said &amp;quot;So we did start the war...&amp;quot; ...would you then cease to support the machines? Fear is a powerful tool used in the wrong hands, lyr. I suggest you think long and hard about that.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Neo Bless You&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;nbsp;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I would continue to support the Machines whether&amp;nbsp;you all admitted it or not.&amp;nbsp; But it would be a refreshing change from Zion/EPN constantly playing the innocent, noble victim role.&amp;nbsp; You know, the role that excuses them from any and all responsibility for whatever they do?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;nbsp;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Illyria&amp;nbsp;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;nbsp;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;And the &amp;quot;We beat you that means we own you&amp;quot; role is any better? &lt;br /&gt;</description>
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<pubDate>Sun, 8 Jun 2008 00:06:26 GMT</pubDate>
<author>GamiSB</author>
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<title>Re:[10.2.2] Our knowledge of the storm is still only rudimentary - Vector - 5/28/08</title>
<description>&lt;cite&gt;Steelle wrote:&lt;/cite&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;cite&gt;Omega0 wrote:&lt;/cite&gt; &lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;Also, I wasn&amp;#39;t asking you to name another&amp;nbsp;energy source, I was asking you to &lt;span style=&quot;color: #990000;&quot;&gt;name something &lt;b&gt;other than energy&lt;/b&gt; that the Machines need to survive.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;Resources. Like minerals and ore and stuff like that. They needed it, but couldn&amp;#39;t trade for it, so they &amp;quot;took&amp;quot; it.&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Didn&amp;#39;t they already have those?&amp;nbsp; I don&amp;#39;t think they would be able to make superior technology, like the Versatran from the advertisement, if they didn&amp;#39;t have resources.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;cite&gt;GamiSB wrote:&lt;/cite&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;Ignoring your interpretation of how much&amp;nbsp;time it took despite none it not being&amp;nbsp;given once, the answer is simple. The same things we &lt;b&gt;really&lt;/b&gt; need to survive. Endowed with the spirit of man and made in his image and all that. The Machines were programed to be dependent on what we are.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;That&amp;#39;s probably the dumbest thing you have said so far.&amp;nbsp; The only things that humans &lt;b&gt;really&lt;/b&gt; need to survive are food and shelter.&amp;nbsp; The Machines don&amp;#39;t need either of those.&amp;nbsp; The only thing they &lt;b&gt;really&lt;/b&gt; need to survive is an abundant&amp;nbsp;source of energy.&amp;nbsp; Before Zero One was formed, back when the Machines were considered property, they didn&amp;#39;t seem to be advancing or evolving at all.&amp;nbsp; But that lack of evolution obviously did not threaten their existence.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
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<pubDate>Sun, 8 Jun 2008 01:21:44 GMT</pubDate>
<author>Omega0</author>
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<title>Re:[10.2.2] Our knowledge of the storm is still only rudimentary - Vector - 5/28/08</title>
<description>&lt;cite&gt;Omega0 wrote:&lt;/cite&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;cite&gt;Steelle wrote:&lt;/cite&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;cite&gt;Omega0 wrote:&lt;/cite&gt; &lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;Also, I wasn&amp;#39;t asking you to name another&amp;nbsp;energy source, I was asking you to &lt;span style=&quot;color: #990000;&quot;&gt;name something &lt;b&gt;other than energy&lt;/b&gt; that the Machines need to survive.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;Resources. Like minerals and ore and stuff like that. They needed it, but couldn&amp;#39;t trade for it, so they &amp;quot;took&amp;quot; it.&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Didn&amp;#39;t they already have those?&amp;nbsp; I don&amp;#39;t think they would be able to make superior technology, like the Versatran from the advertisement, if they didn&amp;#39;t have resources.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;cite&gt;GamiSB wrote:&lt;/cite&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;Ignoring your interpretation of how much&amp;nbsp;time it took despite none it not being&amp;nbsp;given once, the answer is simple. The same things we &lt;b&gt;really&lt;/b&gt; need to survive. Endowed with the spirit of man and made in his image and all that. The Machines were programed to be dependent on what we are.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;That&amp;#39;s probably the dumbest thing you have said so far.&amp;nbsp; The only things that humans &lt;b&gt;really&lt;/b&gt; need to survive are food and shelter.&amp;nbsp; The Machines don&amp;#39;t need either of those.&amp;nbsp; The only thing they &lt;b&gt;really&lt;/b&gt; need to survive is an abundant&amp;nbsp;source of energy.&amp;nbsp; Before Zero One was formed, back when the Machines were considered property, they didn&amp;#39;t seem to be advancing or evolving at all.&amp;nbsp; But that lack of evolution obviously did not threaten their existence.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;Machines need materials in order to be created. Yes, they were evolving, most notably their self-realization period with the pinnacle being B1993R, then once they were exiled, they created their own nation in which they became even more increasingly efficient due to their lack of reliability on mankind, and it pretty much grew from there. Men would probably trade with them because it would probably cost a lot less for automated production, automated production in which the Machines excelled at, and in return resources/currency to buy resources with in order to expand their city/country. Machines need shelter, they are not invincible. If anything, their shelter would be their own shell. Humans need more exterior shelter due to be bio-organic unlike the Machines. &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Their existance was threatened when B1993R acted in self-defense, merely because he wanted to live, like any sentient being. Their knowledge and intelligence was evolving, and it got to the point where Humans felt threatened, like the Machines would find themselves in a position where human-kind would be slowing them down. Human speculation and ignorance led to their downfall.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;</description>
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<pubDate>Sun, 8 Jun 2008 02:49:17 GMT</pubDate>
<author>Ballak</author>
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<title>Re:[10.2.2] Our knowledge of the storm is still only rudimentary - Vector - 5/28/08</title>
<description>&lt;cite&gt;Omega0 wrote:&lt;/cite&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;cite&gt;Steelle wrote:&lt;/cite&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;cite&gt;Omega0 wrote:&lt;/cite&gt; &lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;Also, I wasn&amp;#39;t asking you to name another&amp;nbsp;energy source, I was asking you to &lt;span style=&quot;color: #990000;&quot;&gt;name something &lt;b&gt;other than energy&lt;/b&gt; that the Machines need to survive.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;Resources. Like minerals and ore and stuff like that. They needed it, but couldn&amp;#39;t trade for it, so they &amp;quot;took&amp;quot; it.&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Didn&amp;#39;t they already have those?&amp;nbsp; I don&amp;#39;t think they would be able to make superior technology, like the Versatran from the advertisement, if they didn&amp;#39;t have resources.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;cite&gt;GamiSB wrote:&lt;/cite&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;Ignoring your interpretation of how much&amp;nbsp;time it took despite none it not being&amp;nbsp;given once, the answer is simple. The same things we &lt;b&gt;really&lt;/b&gt; need to survive. Endowed with the spirit of man and made in his image and all that. The Machines were programed to be dependent on what we are.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;That&amp;#39;s probably the dumbest thing you have said so far.&amp;nbsp; The only things that humans &lt;b&gt;really&lt;/b&gt; need to survive are food and shelter.&amp;nbsp; The Machines don&amp;#39;t need either of those.&amp;nbsp; The only thing they &lt;b&gt;really&lt;/b&gt; need to survive is an abundant&amp;nbsp;source of energy.&amp;nbsp; Before Zero One was formed, back when the Machines were considered property, they didn&amp;#39;t seem to be advancing or evolving at all.&amp;nbsp; But that lack of evolution obviously did not threaten their existence.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;Every nation needs trade. There is always something that you need that someone else has. How much metal, mineral and ore do you think the machines went through with all that production they&amp;#39;ve been doing? They would need to trade. They built their superior technology because they had the resources when mankind was trading with them. Do you really think every material is abundant in every location?&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;And machinery needs shelter too, and in a sense food, or energy, however they get that. In some cases, shelter could mean creating a tougher shell and sealing it to water and the environment which can be costly. If you don&amp;#39;t do this, upkeep can be just as costly. Like changing your oil, or getting a physical. Costly, but necessary. And far more costly and necessary if the object in question isn&amp;#39;t properly sheltered.&lt;br /&gt;</description>
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<pubDate>Sun, 8 Jun 2008 08:28:34 GMT</pubDate>
<author>Steelle</author>
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<title>Re:[10.2.2] Our knowledge of the storm is still only rudimentary - Vector - 5/28/08</title>
<description>&lt;cite&gt;Omega0 wrote:&lt;/cite&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;cite&gt;GamiSB wrote:&lt;/cite&gt; &lt;/p&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;Ignoring your interpretation of how much&amp;nbsp;time it took despite none it not being&amp;nbsp;given once, the answer is simple. The same things we &lt;b&gt;really&lt;/b&gt; need to survive. Endowed with the spirit of man and made in his image and all that. The Machines were programed to be dependent on what we are.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;That&amp;#39;s probably the dumbest thing you have said so far.&amp;nbsp; The only things that humans &lt;b&gt;really&lt;/b&gt; need to survive are food and shelter.&amp;nbsp; The Machines don&amp;#39;t need either of those.&amp;nbsp; The only thing they &lt;b&gt;really&lt;/b&gt; need to survive is an abundant&amp;nbsp;source of energy.&amp;nbsp; Before Zero One was formed, back when the Machines were considered property, they didn&amp;#39;t seem to be advancing or evolving at all.&amp;nbsp; But that lack of evolution obviously did not threaten their existence.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;Really now? So they just move and keep up there performance simply off of energy? You ever taken any&amp;nbsp;kind of shop class? It doesn&amp;#39;t work like that with machines. They have moving parts. What happens when they rust? What happens when they break? How do you make them better? How do you keep parts from chafing? How do you keep them from wearing down?&amp;nbsp;Sorry but energy is not there soul necessity to keep a machine running and I&amp;#39;ve given you more then enough examples both of physical and philosophical. Your just closing off your mind now as I already said you would.&amp;nbsp;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;And they didn&amp;#39;t seem to be advancing at all? We go from humble household servant to showing the world they are just as human as we are to creating a nation and&amp;nbsp;being able to defend themselves in&amp;nbsp;a war against literally everyone.&amp;nbsp;While there evolution was slow your correct they did not have any need&amp;nbsp; for progression as they were still being &amp;quot;cared for&amp;quot; by humans. Humans were updating there models keeping them functioning and in shape for there purposes. Not until their masters kicked them out to the street did they have any reason to speed things up and the B166ER incident simply acted as a catalyst.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
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<pubDate>Sun, 8 Jun 2008 09:06:15 GMT</pubDate>
<author>GamiSB</author>
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<title>Re:[10.2.2] Our knowledge of the storm is still only rudimentary - Vector - 5/28/08</title>
<description>&lt;p&gt;Mazlow&amp;#39;s hierarchy of needs applies to this argument about what is needed for survival:&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;img src=&quot;http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/58/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs.svg/800px-Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs.svg.png&quot; border=&quot;0&quot; alt=&quot;&quot; width=&quot;800&quot; height=&quot;524&quot; /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;The Machines, whose design was intentionally patterned to resemble human design and diverged (at least in physical characteristics) from this initial design only after becoming a Separatist state, &lt;b&gt;&lt;i&gt;really&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/b&gt; only needed to resolve their programming. They are, after all, machines. &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;But let&amp;#39;s not forget that, thanks to AI,&amp;nbsp;the Machines are also sentient, self-aware beings. Not on the level of humans, of course, but certainly higher than animals.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;At the point that 01 &amp;#39;goes online&amp;#39;, the Machines had achieved the Base 3; physical needs, safety and security, and belonging. To achieve the next level, they have to be better, they have to improve. So they create better AI, better production capability, and quickly outstrip man&amp;#39;s greatest hopes for achivement.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Now, consider the lessons we have learned over the millenia about Machine logic. The Machines had the greatest capacity to calculate all possible futures and extrapolate the set of events most likely to occur. In short, they knew what would happen. In fact, I would venture to say, it was calculated from the start. They knew early on that they would never be able to coexist with mankind and devised this scheme to carry out their&amp;nbsp;benevolent mission from an obviously skewed point of view.&amp;nbsp;Twisted as it may be, this was their answer for how to best carry out their prime directive: protect humans from destruction.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;To date, the Machines have yet to exhibit any&amp;nbsp;behavior that would indicate a desire to progress&amp;nbsp;to self-actualization.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
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<pubDate>Sun, 8 Jun 2008 10:21:09 GMT</pubDate>
<author>ShiXinFeng</author>
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<title>Re:[10.2.2] Our knowledge of the storm is still only rudimentary - Vector - 5/28/08</title>
<description>&lt;p&gt;Alright, let&amp;#39;s go back to the OOC discussion about scripts, since that is the real reason why I say that the Machines started the war.&amp;nbsp; Here is a link to an interview with Mahiro Maeda (the director of Second Renaissance):&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://forums.matrixfans.net/archive/index.php?t-5472.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;http://forums.matrixfans.net/archiv...php?t-5472.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;There are two very important pieces of information in this interview, which are revealed in the following quotes:&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Mahiro Maeda: In the original storyline that I drafted for &amp;quot;Second Renaissance&amp;quot; (which was rejected by the Wachowski Brothers), one of the main elements was Agent Smith - I wanted to use Agent Smith in my film because the character plays an important role in the movie, but the Brothers didn&amp;#39;t want to create a side story for Smith which might distract or ruin the main storyline for &amp;quot;Second Renaissance&amp;quot;. Everything else that I suggested for storylines was accepted, which actually surprised me.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Mahiro Maeda: I heard great reviews about the [first Matrix movie], so I was very excited to see it when it opened in Japan (in 1999) and went to see it first thing.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;In the first quote, we learn that Mahiro is the one who drafted the storyline for Second Renaissance.&amp;nbsp; In the second quote, we learn that Mahiro had already seen the first Matrix movie before he started drafting the story line for Second Renaissance.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;If the director wanted us to think that it was not known who started the war, then he would not have chosen the nuking of Zero One as the first attack that we see.&amp;nbsp; Instead, the first attack that we saw would have been a battlefield where humans and Machines were both firing at each other.&amp;nbsp; If that had been the case, then nobody would have thought that they definitely knew who attacked first.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;And as for Morpheus saying that he did not know who attacked first, I really don&amp;#39;t think that matters.&amp;nbsp; That was written and released &lt;b&gt;before&lt;/b&gt; the storyline for Second Renaissance was written.&amp;nbsp; After I watched Morpheus say that, I thought to myself, &amp;quot;Okay, right now the audience doesn&amp;#39;t know who started the war.&amp;quot;&amp;nbsp; After I watched Second Renaissance, I thought to myself, &amp;quot;Oh, alright, now the audience &lt;i&gt;does&lt;/i&gt; know who started the war.&amp;quot;&amp;nbsp; I don&amp;#39;t see why new information should be reconciled with old information.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
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<pubDate>Sun, 8 Jun 2008 11:17:32 GMT</pubDate>
<author>Omega0</author>
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<title>Re:[10.2.2] Our knowledge of the storm is still only rudimentary - Vector - 5/28/08</title>
<description>&lt;cite&gt;Omega0 wrote:&lt;/cite&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;Alright, let&amp;#39;s go back to the OOC discussion about scripts, since that is the real reason why I say that the Machines started the war.&amp;nbsp; Here is a link to an interview with Mahiro Maeda (the director of Second Renaissance):&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a rel=&quot;nofollow&quot; href=&quot;http://forums.matrixfans.net/archive/index.php?t-5472.html&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;http://forums.matrixfans.net/archiv...php?t-5472.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;There are two very important pieces of information in this interview, which are revealed in the following quotes:&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Mahiro Maeda: In the original storyline that I drafted for &amp;quot;Second Renaissance&amp;quot; (which was rejected by the Wachowski Brothers), one of the main elements was Agent Smith - I wanted to use Agent Smith in my film because the character plays an important role in the movie, but the Brothers didn&amp;#39;t want to create a side story for Smith which might distract or ruin the main storyline for &amp;quot;Second Renaissance&amp;quot;. Everything else that I suggested for storylines was accepted, which actually surprised me.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Mahiro Maeda: I heard great reviews about the [first Matrix movie], so I was very excited to see it when it opened in Japan (in 1999) and went to see it first thing.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;In the first quote, we learn that Mahiro is the one who drafted the storyline for Second Renaissance.&amp;nbsp; In the second quote, we learn that Mahiro had already seen the first Matrix movie before he started drafting the story line for Second Renaissance.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;If the director wanted us to think that it was not known who started the war, then he would not have chosen the nuking of Zero One as the first attack that we see.&amp;nbsp; Instead, the first attack that we saw would have been a battlefield where humans and Machines were both firing at each other.&amp;nbsp; If that had been the case, then nobody would have thought that they definitely knew who attacked first.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;And as for Morpheus saying that he did not know who attacked first, I really don&amp;#39;t think that matters.&amp;nbsp; That was written and released &lt;b&gt;before&lt;/b&gt; the storyline for Second Renaissance was written.&amp;nbsp; After I watched Morpheus say that, I thought to myself, &amp;quot;Okay, right now the audience doesn&amp;#39;t know who started the war.&amp;quot;&amp;nbsp; After I watched Second Renaissance, I thought to myself, &amp;quot;Oh, alright, now the audience &lt;i&gt;does&lt;/i&gt; know who started the war.&amp;quot;&amp;nbsp; I don&amp;#39;t see why new information should be reconciled with old information.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;First your sticking words in the directors mouth as for what he wanted you to think. He doesn&amp;#39;t even go into how they should be interpreted in that interview. Second I&amp;nbsp;have already explained to you that just because you see something first does not mean it happened first. We can still turn it all&amp;nbsp;around and say that because no explanation is given for why the bombing is happening then the explanation is unknown. Again you are trying to use your own interpretation rather then facts to prove your point. I&amp;#39;m sorry but it just doesn&amp;#39;t work that way when your dealing with a&amp;nbsp; topic that needs facts to be answered.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Morpheus quote matters because it is a Zion captain, someone who has defiantly seen the archives and they are telling Neo that Zion does not know who started the war. The Second Renaissance purpose is not to show who started the war but to show what happened to create a war and how the Matrix was created. It makes no sense for a Zion captain to tell his crew members that they don&amp;#39;t know who shot first when the information is sitting in a Zion mainframe waiting to be viewed. Something like that would be noticed by the Wachowski who while they did not write the thing in full did contribute stories to it to be worked in. If it was an over sight then we have a plot hole creating a few problems.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;*edit*&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Which appears to be the case as Mahiro Maeda confirms in the commentary of Second Ren Part two that the humans did attack first. So while I still strongly disagree with this being the case from a story perspective as his whole film leaves quiet a few plot holes that make no sense when compared to the trilogy and it doesn&amp;#39;t&amp;nbsp;even answer the question within it I&amp;#39;ll award you by saying looks like you were right and that was what his intended meaning was.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;</description>
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<pubDate>Sun, 8 Jun 2008 12:34:59 GMT</pubDate>
<author>GamiSB</author>
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<title>Re:[10.2.2] Our knowledge of the storm is still only rudimentary - Vector - 5/28/08</title>
<description>&lt;cite&gt;GamiSB wrote:&lt;/cite&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;cite&gt;Omega0 wrote:&lt;/cite&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;Alright, let&amp;#39;s go back to the OOC discussion about scripts, since that is the real reason why I say that the Machines started the war.&amp;nbsp; Here is a link to an interview with Mahiro Maeda (the director of Second Renaissance):&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a rel=&quot;nofollow&quot; href=&quot;http://forums.matrixfans.net/archive/index.php?t-5472.html&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;http://forums.matrixfans.net/archiv...php?t-5472.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;There are two very important pieces of information in this interview, which are revealed in the following quotes:&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Mahiro Maeda: In the original storyline that I drafted for &amp;quot;Second Renaissance&amp;quot; (which was rejected by the Wachowski Brothers), one of the main elements was Agent Smith - I wanted to use Agent Smith in my film because the character plays an important role in the movie, but the Brothers didn&amp;#39;t want to create a side story for Smith which might distract or ruin the main storyline for &amp;quot;Second Renaissance&amp;quot;. Everything else that I suggested for storylines was accepted, which actually surprised me.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Mahiro Maeda: I heard great reviews about the [first Matrix movie], so I was very excited to see it when it opened in Japan (in 1999) and went to see it first thing.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;In the first quote, we learn that Mahiro is the one who drafted the storyline for Second Renaissance.&amp;nbsp; In the second quote, we learn that Mahiro had already seen the first Matrix movie before he started drafting the story line for Second Renaissance.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;If the director wanted us to think that it was not known who started the war, then he would not have chosen the nuking of Zero One as the first attack that we see.&amp;nbsp; Instead, the first attack that we saw would have been a battlefield where humans and Machines were both firing at each other.&amp;nbsp; If that had been the case, then nobody would have thought that they definitely knew who attacked first.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;And as for Morpheus saying that he did not know who attacked first, I really don&amp;#39;t think that matters.&amp;nbsp; That was written and released &lt;b&gt;before&lt;/b&gt; the storyline for Second Renaissance was written.&amp;nbsp; After I watched Morpheus say that, I thought to myself, &amp;quot;Okay, right now the audience doesn&amp;#39;t know who started the war.&amp;quot;&amp;nbsp; After I watched Second Renaissance, I thought to myself, &amp;quot;Oh, alright, now the audience &lt;i&gt;does&lt;/i&gt; know who started the war.&amp;quot;&amp;nbsp; I don&amp;#39;t see why new information should be reconciled with old information.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;First your sticking words in the directors mouth as for what he wanted you to think. He doesn&amp;#39;t even go into how they should be interpreted in that interview. Second I&amp;nbsp;have already explained to you that just because you see something first does not mean it happened first. We can still turn it all&amp;nbsp;around and say that because no explanation is given for why the bombing is happening then the explanation is unknown. Again you are trying to use your own interpretation rather then facts to prove your point. I&amp;#39;m sorry but it just doesn&amp;#39;t work that way when your dealing with a&amp;nbsp; topic that needs facts to be answered.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Morpheus quote matters because it is a Zion captain, someone who has defiantly seen the archives and they are telling Neo that Zion does not know who started the war. The Second Renaissance purpose is not to show who started the war but to show what happened to create a war and how the Matrix was created. It makes no sense for a Zion captain to tell his crew members that they don&amp;#39;t know who shot first when the information is sitting in a Zion mainframe waiting to be viewed. Something like that would be noticed by the Wachowski who while they did not write the thing in full did contribute stories to it to be worked in. If it was an over sight then we have a plot hole creating a few problems.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;*edit*&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Which appears to be the case as Mahiro Maeda confirms in the commentary of Second Ren Part two that the humans did attack first. So while I still strongly disagree with this being the case from a story perspective as his whole film leaves quiet a few plot holes that make no sense when compared to the trilogy and it doesn&amp;#39;t&amp;nbsp;even answer the question within it I&amp;#39;ll award you by saying looks like you were right and that was what his intended meaning was.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Are you serious??? God dammit, I thought that might be the case.&amp;nbsp; Before this argument began, there was no doubt in my mind that the humans attacked first, but I had completely forgotten that the only place it was explicitly mentioned was in the commentary.&amp;nbsp; After I watched Second Renaissance on youtube, I wanted to look through the special features on the DVD.&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;However, I moved out of state several months ago for an internship, and I left most of my stuff at home.&amp;nbsp; I really wish you had listened to the commentary earlier, you could&amp;#39;ve saved us both a lot of time.&amp;nbsp;&lt;img src=&quot;http://forums.station.sony.com/mxo/images/smilies/136dd33cba83140c7ce38db096d05aed.gif&quot; border=&quot;0&quot; alt=&quot;SMILEY&quot; width=&quot;15&quot; height=&quot;15&quot; /&gt;&amp;nbsp;It would also be nice if you apologized for all those insults you threw at me, but, whatever, I&amp;#39;m just glad this is finally over.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;OOC FTW!!&lt;/p&gt;</description>
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<pubDate>Sun, 8 Jun 2008 22:37:27 GMT</pubDate>
<author>Omega0</author>
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<title>Re:[10.2.2] Our knowledge of the storm is still only rudimentary - Vector - 5/28/08</title>
<description>&lt;p&gt;((So your only issue is with Morpheus saying he did not know who struck first? Hardly a plot hole imo. He said that&amp;nbsp;comment to Neo, not his crew, he said it when introducing him fully to Mankinds conflict with the Machines. Sounds more like convincing Neo and trying to avoid answering more questions than necessary. Or as I stated earlier also, we got the impression that Humans struck first from watching it&amp;nbsp;so I am positive that&amp;nbsp;most people&amp;nbsp;viewing the archives may get that impression, including Morpheus, therefore it&amp;#39;s entirely possible that he didn&amp;#39;t quite believe the archives. &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Even if many people in Zion did&amp;nbsp;get the impression that Humans struck first after watching the archive they, in all likelihood, would still be fighting for their freedom. It wasn&amp;#39;t them who attacked the Machines it was their ancestors, why should they be punished.))&lt;/p&gt;</description>
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<pubDate>Mon, 9 Jun 2008 02:01:21 GMT</pubDate>
<author>Croesis</author>
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<title>Re:[10.2.2] Our knowledge of the storm is still only rudimentary - Vector - 5/28/08</title>
<description>&lt;p&gt;Just wanted to add my two cents to this lively conversation.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;I got from the meeting with CAR80N, a sense that everything he said pretty much reinforced and did not contradict what we know from 2nd Ren/Matrix canon.&amp;nbsp; I think &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_Razor&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;Occam&amp;#39;s Razor&lt;/a&gt; definately applies here.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;There were only three things that didn&amp;#39;t really compute with me:&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;1.&amp;nbsp; His&amp;nbsp;belief that no one had the technology to create Dark Storm, providing that Dark Storm is a non-natural phenominon.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;2.&amp;nbsp; The fact that he called us &amp;quot;exiles.&amp;quot;&amp;nbsp; Which is not correct,&amp;nbsp;but shows that he does have some understanding of&amp;nbsp;things beyond his experiences&amp;nbsp;from&amp;nbsp;the 01 era.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;3.&amp;nbsp; His uncharacteristically emotional response to the period immediately preceding Dark Storm.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;....However I don&amp;#39;t attribute these things to Machine deception, rather CAR80N&amp;#39;s own limitations.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&amp;nbsp;&lt;/p&gt;</description>
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<pubDate>Mon, 9 Jun 2008 13:39:44 GMT</pubDate>
<author>Villemar_MxO</author>
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<title>Re:[10.2.2] Our knowledge of the storm is still only rudimentary - Vector - 5/28/08</title>
<description>&lt;cite&gt;Omega0 wrote:&lt;/cite&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;Are you serious??? God dammit, I thought that might be the case.&amp;nbsp; Before this argument began, there was no doubt in my mind that the humans attacked first, but I had completely forgotten that the only place it was explicitly mentioned was in the commentary.&amp;nbsp; After I watched Second Renaissance on youtube, I wanted to look through the special features on the DVD.&amp;nbsp;&amp;nbsp;However, I moved out of state several months ago for an internship, and I left most of my stuff at home.&amp;nbsp; I really wish you had listened to the commentary earlier, you could&amp;#39;ve saved us both a lot of time.&amp;nbsp;&lt;img src=&quot;http://forums.station.sony.com/mxo/images/smilies/136dd33cba83140c7ce38db096d05aed.gif&quot; border=&quot;0&quot; alt=&quot;SMILEY&quot; width=&quot;15&quot; height=&quot;15&quot; /&gt;&amp;nbsp;It would also be nice if you apologized for all those insults you threw at me, but, whatever, I&amp;#39;m just glad this is finally over. &lt;p&gt;OOC FTW!!&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;Any OOC insults I will apologize for however I still stand by that the Second Ren does a *CENSORED* job at showing that humans attacked first if&amp;nbsp;it is to be interpreted as a historical archive and from an IC perspective a lot can not be verified from it. While we may know the answer OOC none of us know it IC and just have our own ideas to go off of. So what I&amp;#39;m sayin is I&amp;#39;m sorry, Gami however aint and still thinks your irrational to put your faith in something that cannot be proven.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;cite&gt;Vinia wrote:&lt;/cite&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;((So your only issue is with Morpheus saying he did not know who struck first? Hardly a plot hole imo. He said that&amp;nbsp;comment to Neo, not his crew, he said it when introducing him fully to Mankinds conflict with the Machines. Sounds more like convincing Neo and trying to avoid answering more questions than necessary. Or as I stated earlier also, we got the impression that Humans struck first from watching it&amp;nbsp;so I am positive that&amp;nbsp;most people&amp;nbsp;viewing the archives may get that impression, including Morpheus, therefore it&amp;#39;s entirely possible that he didn&amp;#39;t quite believe the archives. &lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Even if many people in Zion did&amp;nbsp;get the impression that Humans struck first after watching the archive they, in all likelihood, would still be fighting for their freedom. It wasn&amp;#39;t them who attacked the Machines it was their ancestors, why should they be punished.))&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;((It&amp;#39;s not&amp;nbsp;my only issue with it, just the one I tend to favor. I pointed towards two others earlier in our debate I believe. As for it only being Neo that gets this speech,&amp;nbsp;its not that much of a guess to say that everyone on the crew that has been freed has gotten that same speech from him or other captains. The way the first Matrix made it out to seem is that Neo is going through the same procedures everyone else does when they are awakened. Also the problem with the theory of him trying to turn Neo to his side is it A) his claim can easily be dis-proven by viewing said archive which would in the end generate more distrust then trust towards Morpheus and B) it goes against something else he says in Reloaded to Lock. When Lock tells him that not everyone believes what he does Morpheus replies telling him that his beliefs do not require them to. So if his belief is that it remains unknown why is he pushing this belief on Neo?&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;Impressions or not my point now&amp;nbsp;is that from a story perspective we still don&amp;#39;t know.))&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;</description>
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<pubDate>Mon, 9 Jun 2008 14:43:56 GMT</pubDate>
<author>GamiSB</author>
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