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Money has prevented me from trying too much of the MasterShadow tree, but legsweep is a real gift if it hits..... does sacrificing focus mean you are less effective in IL? I had read that only ballistic or Melee accuracy determined IL rolls?

This is something a majority of players seem to be asking for and sadly getting little response atm, of the many threads that have brought it up this is the main one;

http://mxoboards.station.sony.com/matrix/board/message?board.id=CR20Abil&message.id=258

Well it is a clever work around I'll grant you but it emphasises once again how we get zero benefit from the two hotbars under CR2. The current implementation of combat is unweildy and urgently in need of attention, we need less pre fight button clicking, less icons to keep monitoring and revised and more efficient hotbar.

bonopi wrote:
I disagree, the 2 hotbars is perfect now because with those abilities in the actions panel you can pretty much fit everything you need into 2 hotbars. And because they have 2 instead of 1 you don't have to click to change your hotbar durring combat.

You have created a workaround to a problem resulting from the fact that 2 hotbars are not enough and while I agree it is better than not using this method it is by no means a proper solution. Run a mission with a map showing, two hotbars and a buff display bar trickling down the screen on a 1024x768 looks cluttered enough believe me without adding more windows into the mix.

Wishing no disrespect to your solution imo It is a case of treating the symptoms and not the cause and surely at the QA stage of all times we have a genuine responsibility to press for a proper fix?

bonopi wrote:
no, I totally agree that there needs to be something better and specifically for what this is trying to do, but I think I remember that they aren't going to be making any big changes like that until after they release it and/or they put in more content to the game.

So really, would you personally want to use this fix and wait for a more permanent implementation or would you rather the devs get to work on more content right after CU2.0 gets released.

Personally, I can put up with this fix for the time being...given that we'll have a bunch of new content coming soon...

The fix is indeed useful if the devs are not tackling the issue I thank you for that and agree fully about the comment re content. However UI problem was raised very early in the QA and is a big issue even with CR2.0 biggest supporters - I dont feel it is reasonable for it to be omitted for reasons that relate to another thread we have contributed to......

There is serious hostility to CR2 by a large number of players, this hostilty is bred by the alien feel of the new system (it arose soley from first impressions - not so much what it does as how we use it). They voted with their feet and that is one of the big problems we have been left with, getting anyone to really test the system, putting it onto live without addressing concerns such as this could have catastophic consequences for the population...making it more familiar and accessible is the very best manner to avoid such a result.

The whole spy tree revolves around sneak, if it isn't made more robust and effective no one will use it SMILEY

Message Edited by Tytanya_MxO on 03-02-200605:57 AM

The spy tree was the last tree to hit the QA and has had far less consideration than any other tree, imo it deserves attention now - if a single item of clothing (not even rare) is making a difference as significant as this it should be addressed.

Ooops apologies for the double post!

Message Edited by Tytanya_MxO on 03-02-200605:58 AM

Jilted_1 wrote:
I hate to tell you all this, but yes it is over powered, if only slightly.
Actually it's a source of a major exploit, I've already bugged it, hopefully it will be fixed soon.

Basically certain spy attacks are causing the "disabled by virus" errror message when they shouldn't be. hence when I'm normally supposed to be rooted, it is as if I am stunned and suddenly I'm dead and some MKT punk is bragging about pwning me.

Had he been using the skills correctly and not taking advantage of a bug the fight would have gone a very different way. It's bee reported so it should be fixed soon.

IMHO, thrown accuracy is a little high, despite haing very high thrown defense I still get hit most of the time. I push my resistance up with "calm mind, calm body", they use find weakness and suddenly my resistance means little. Personally a slight nerf could be used, jsut for the sake of balance. Otherwise we will see everyone loading MKT or Assassin in about 3 weeks.

-Jilted

Well the disabled by virus bug is one I get too frequently for my liking, I havent yet been able to trace it to any specific attack mind but whereever it comes from does indeed need attention. (it certainly isn't isolated tot he spy tree)

I strongly disagree that thrown accuracy too high mind, quite the contrary I find even with maxed Perception you can miss 4 or five thorws in a row and not have enough is to do anything else!

Thrown resistance is the new kid on the block and for that reason the one people tend to ignore...many haven't even coded Hyper-sense.

What's more before any nerfing takes place anywhere due consideration has to be made of the ease of use and the availbility of targets, an assassin/mkt cannot blindly throw themselves into battle like ma or gunman, nor can they weild their reanged attacks from the safety like the hacker classes.

Assassin isn't any better unfortunately, stuns are short the ability to restealth with an aware opponent all but impossible SMILEY

cant comment fully until Disguise is available but looks like spy's are going to be one of the weakest pvp classes.

I don't mind the direction or the mixing of moves...in fact I use full assassin and MKT trees currently so its little or no change for me.... I dont think its entirely resonable to have to put all the attributes into one place simply to be effective, there needs to be some flexibility and indeed in doing so you will sacrifice other much needed spy skills most notably the mkt ones. Attributes are there to increase your effectiveness not simply to enable something to work, there is a definite need to facilitate a reasonable window for proper attacks to be made and followed up in spy.

Surely spy of all clases, should stand alone; it has never been and should never be considered only a support class? Equally I'm unsure that with the loss of Multi IL ma even works as a tank class for assassin, as the most effective moves are impossible to execute.

Sneak has to be more resistant to breaking that is absolutely essential atm a further change to counter the current situation might be to allow sneak to be enabled while moving.

well it remains a puzzle to me, yesterday against two particular targets my knives were doing around 100-120 damage (you could almost see it fully regen before the next strike), I presume they had maxed their thrown resistance but the actual chance of taking these targets down soley with knives seems nil, if that scenario can develop its difficult to understand the class as being anything other than UNDERpowered. I hope the bugs noted are specific and that before any nerfing takes place due consideration is given to the short range and requirement for stealth which other classes do not need to support their trees.

krytical wrote:
After looking more into this, I noticed that the problem might be the disguise. Apparently when you use disguise and interlock with an assassin strike, it automatically switches from spy style to self defense (yes I have spy style selected in the interlock box) and therefore I lose all of my Thrown Accuracy points. It works alright with sneak, give it a try with disguise.

I am finding this in a number of scenario's spy-style for some reason de-selects to self defense, cetainly when travelling through HL's, and atm I am running around not using a weapon because if you chance a ballistic attack it seems you lose all the spy-style buffs and it takes a significant number of clicks to get it back.

HCFrog wrote:

.... but the bulk will probably come from clothing. If you're a level 50 and you have top level resistance clothing.......with top level clothes

*sigh*

Message Edited by Tytanya_MxO on 03-08-200606:11 AM

>revolt_ wrote:
Why *sigh*?

Clothing has been elevated in importance in cr2 at least for pvp, the best clothes will inevitably end up being the best clothes...variety will be restricted to that subset, yes making it bigger is cool but as our RSI are inherently less strong, the overall need for those uber-items will increase from our present situation.

I confess the importance I placed on the issue is born of ignorance on my part - as I had not appreciated the lesser impact on the hostile servers...on vector these will be a virtual 24/7 need sadly.

SeanMCanney wrote:
k please just change the spy tree back to the way it was!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And give bull dog back!

Actually the one overiding imporvement I thought was the removal of bulldog so I'm surpirsed to hear that. Certainly as the ultimate move Punt manages to be painful, humerous and satisfying in a way bulldog never was...... reverse bulldog is a different matter that move rocked in its old form.

DA6ONET wrote:
Things that NEED to be FIXED NOW with mkt and assasin

Neuro Dart - Timer shorten to 15seconds on movement speed
Paralyzing Throw - Reuse timer should be at least 16 seconds
Hyper Sense - Should actually prevent knives and sneak attacks from hitting so frequently (100 times tested 90 hit)
Find Weakness should be 25pts, and reuse timer 90seconds
Special Rollout moves should not be garuanteed OR have large reuse timers (45secs or more)

For ALL classes:
No hyperjump while in a combat state

- you forgot to add that all spys should automatically die when within a 20m radius of Zion players! :smileyindifferent:
tbh I agree with you on the reuse timer for the paralysing throw (though for the damage it does 16seconds is way too long) and I also agree that the Neurodart needs to be looked at in relation to its position in the tree, however the rest of your comments are an attempt to draw direct parallels between spy abilities and those of other trees and that is wrong, a spy already has an additional obstacle in so far as they have to be in a stealthed state to unleash their really effective stuff, the rules and requirements to initiate the attacks place the challenge on the stealth applied by the player (ranges have already been signifcantly nerfed to increase this challenge) and therefore there has to be a compensation in terms of the reward...there are also some serious problems with the spy tree, like the difficulties of use in crowded scenarios (no other tree could care less cepting sniper which has range on its side) the sprawling distribution of its abilities (spys cannot generally afford themselves the luxury of hybrids with non-spy trees) and the significantly bugged selection of 'spy-style', by all means review the tree but to apply nerfs without addressing the problem area's would be very wrong.
The comment re hyperjump is nothing short of bizarre, it would be an absolutely devastating change - the time taken to 'trip' out of the combat would ensure IL was all but perpertual free fire would ensure no one could jump away, we could throw away evade, throw away spy, throw away hacker, throw away the machine organisation and throw away the merov organisation!

Notario wrote:
assasin have to be rebalanced too. u can disactive evades target, u can kill ur targer with 3 hits, always sneak, the only thing that protects target from assasins is detection, percepction or watchers and to kill an assasin before he jumps is hacker or rooting him all the time. i see what u want kritical, more power to ur special tree lol. maybe u you can ask to get a high hyperjump to jump but far away even and another attack with more damage, then u will kill quickier and u will escape quickier too lol

These are the very aspects that define the spy, the need for stealth is a challenge added before any attack may be made (no other tree has to contend with that). The disable evade is pathetically easy to avoid and without that initial attack all but one of the spy the tree's falls apart. Ranges have already been significantly nerfed and the effectiveness of spy in typical group scenarios has been significantly reduced, the fact is that 90% of the complaints are because people cba with four types of damage resistance and find the new type 'thrown' the one easiest to forget....as has been said when you face someone with high thrown resistance the knives are seriously underpowered typically a spy wont have enough IS to make a kill!

Hmm 5pm Pacific time looks to be 1am my local time...how long do you imagine the event lasting?

truth is while sneak is so fragile it isn't even possible to do any real testing.

First and foremost for the entire spy tree, we need Sneak looked into, atm even assuming you score with the first attack there is little or no chance of a follow up for any MKT or Assassin ability once an opponent is aware - he will be straing at you and the debuff/stun/root times are so short now you can't do anything other than head in a direct lien back to the target.

Very good idea, anything to simply and streamline the system.

/Sign

I always roleplay and assume that others are doing so as well (after all who has these abilities in real life and who would choose to come here without an interest in the Matrix universe). It is more challenging on a Hostile server but I believe that the most flexible aspect of roleplay is your own imagination, so when you come accross someone who isn't in character, flex the grey matter and consider... some people are just bitter and want revenge there is no reasoning with them, some people are drugged and crazed by their new found 'powers', some people are harmless and just want company and finally and most importantly some people are just plain j3rks lol. Working through all that and ensuring you don't fool yourself into thinking you are genuinely the 'one' will cover most bases and allow you to enjoy the game more imo.

The only difficulty i have and I would appreciate any thoughts is how you reason that the entire Machine force regularly battles Zion, given that the truce is something we cannot lose (since it invalidates the entire game - taking the war outside etc?)

* Begin transmission *

Identified new Zion recruit Anikal, he was given the usual warm welcome by our forces. The cave monkeys refuse to accept the inevitability of their defeat, however their force becomes increasingly weak and disorganised. As they look for hope we deliver pain and suffering, savouring their humiliation is quite delicious and to think we get paid as well lol!

* End Transmission *

Managed a bit of testing of the sneak ability last night with the kind assist of CLAUIDUS and BrightMorning and a small selection of NPC's at Industry square.

Against NPC's sadly it remains very very ineffective, in ten approches only 2 did I get within attack range before my 'Sneak' broke. In fact it is very clear the NPC's knew of my approach in most cases as easily as if I had just walked toward them (indeed they would be shooting me even though the sneak 'held'). Once spotted by an NPC you need to retreat to a significant distance to remove their uncanny ability to see you and even predict where you are going to emerge. Even weaving between level 41 NPC's regularly caused my sneak to break, I'm afraid real tests on the spy tree against npc's will not be possible till this is sorted.

Against players things seem very different and a more encouraging, on most occasions I was able to get into an attack position with the player unaware, sadly the success rate of landing assassin attacks isn't high (but maybe that is down to my stats and clothes), worse for a failed strike the punishment was harsh with between a third and half my HP had gone and no evident damage to my foe as I manically do a sideways rollout. The biggest issue is re-cloaking for a follow up attack, the players awareness coupled with the presence of npc's (only level 1) meant finding a spot to drop back into sneak was very challenging, a smart ma would be on you or would leap away to really impact on any chance of a kill and in a group of players I would imagine (as I can't test it) one shot will be all that is possible. Perhaps after a sucessful strike a stealthing bonus could facilitate an eaier route to engage sneak or disguise etc.

My initial build was MA/assasin subjectively that seemed poor despite the solider tree housing both neither branch seems to complement the other and both feel ineffective therefore - Moving to assasin+Mkt was much more sucessful....this is a disturbing potential consequence of CR2 that hybrid builds have far less flexibilty given that abilities have been replaced by buffs and those buffs dont stack. Basically you decide to use either ma OR assassin and practically speaking until you are able to step away from the battle changing seems unwise. Perfect for duels less so for the manic wars usually experienced on Vector.

I finished the seesion with a very tidy assassination combining knives and assassin strikes which left me encouraged that the main issues could be solved through balancing.

Hopefully will be able to experiment a little further tonight but with disguise and 'disable evasion' were not available to test, after sneak I suspect these will be the next critical abilities to make or break the tree.

Yes more testing today and the encouragement I felt yesterday has gone. Running around Mara you are clearly visible to players most of the time; didnt manage to execute a single assassin strike before being seen SMILEY

. Even more humiliating one of the few times i was able to get close enough to an npc (a level 15!) he managed to repel my reverse bulldog attempt!! With all spy appropriate buffs levelled and maxed that was just unbelieveable. I feel there is nothing more to be gained by any more testing until sneak is sorted SMILEY

If it was just some buffs no one would mind, but we have gone from the ridiculous to the sublime, the new system is terribly unweildy and when it comes to real hybrid trees virtually un-useable. it MUST be addressed BEFORE it goes live!

Oh those cheeky Cypherite rascals..... Fortunately while they waste their time at parties scoring easy cq's the real activity of the matrix goes ahead very smoothly SMILEY

Actually truth be told if you are going to post every party that gets crashed you will fill the board pretty quickly, its far more significant to highlight the few that escape.

We work for the Merovingian and get paid/rewarded for that work, we understand his motives and he understands ours, theres no requirement for blind loyalty and no niaeve belief that our actions are altrusitic/noble. Truth is the Merovingian allows the individual to prosper and profit from their own efforts like no other organisation. Zion and Machine operatives are simply slaves, we are gods - wake up and smell the coffee!

Most excellent report Ingus, I look forward to future developments SMILEY

Bottom line here is that evolution is at work as intensely inside the matrix as outside. Examine the facts: Man evolves to a point where he can create a race superior to itself, the machines, mankind desperately tries to survive but as with all out-evolved races fades in significance and looks extinction squarely in the face, it is however saved by that hardcoded ancestry of its decendents (they still feel the need to sustain their creator and hence their unimaginative method to find a use for them).

But this is just an intermediate stage of evolution, the machine themsleves begin to develop sentience, exert individuality and self purpose....a need to survive (the very basis of evolution). In the current state these are regarded as exiles since thier existence is beyond the limited comprehension of the machines.....the fact is these are the future for the machines....and then further is the interesting intrusion of we Redpill's whose RSI's are a unique bridge between man and machine in many ways a race of their own in the matrix superior in so many ways to the bluepills and majority of exiles and machines, another branch of evolution.

Cog, there are many people and aspects of society for which we have no knowledge of their purpose or contribution however that is usually a function of our own ignorance, you can either embrace the future and make a place for yourself in it or you can stand in its way and face the inevitable extermination.

Spadz wrote:

The honest answer I think is that the Zerg is more effective.

Why? Well, with CR2 interlock is faster but because of resistances and active buffs that you can use in combat, it takes longer to kill an opponent. This means in essence more time for the Zerg to roll on your position and put more people around you to shoot/knife/kick you while you're in interlock. We all know that states are the key to launching and landing the big damage moves and now there is more time for more Zerg-la-dytes to group on you and inflict states.

Add to this contested roll outs and you have a more effective Zerg.

Now, all that said.. I think CR2 is a million times better than the old way, but the Zerg is more effective.

How would we fix this? I'm not sure.. longer DE penalties? More toughness for low population orgs to balance things out? Meh.. who knows such things? Only the Oracle.

These are my thoughts exactly, many of my CR2 fears proved to be unfounded but this one was very definitely realised. It is exacerbated by the apparent ease free fire Melee fighters have to be able to induce debuff states on the person caught in IL. I hear what other people say about being able to fight a larger force but quite honestly this is purely ignorance to the new system and very soon that will not exist as a tool. The actual aggressiveness of Vector has decreased as there is a more ready resignation of the futility of certain battles...the only positive as regards that situation is that the current population of Vector is probably more balanced that at any other time in its life.

The only real suggestion I would propose is that the evade combat stat gets a buff proportionate to the relative number of different opponents inflicting damage (ie twice as many people hitting A in IL offers an 10% boost to his evade), this way the handicapped force has a better change to retreat and rethink a strategy. And or once in IL the two combatants can take damage from outside but certain states ie stun, root etc can only come from within.

Excellent stuff really well done SMILEY

..... episode 2 now please SMILEY

I'm currently MKT but in truth I dont want to be! I much prefer MA and if my Pvp battles could resolve into 1 on 1 or even 2 on 1 I would stick with it. However as a Merov (and I'm sure Machines find the same) go into any battle with Zion and within seconds you will be attacked by anywhere between 4 -9 (my current record SMILEY

) Zions of my level!!

Hackers are a response to this server imbalance its the best way to attack a larger force and address the odds (sadly the enemy then uses this technique against you and the advantage is removed lol), MKT is largely a responce to hacker and these will generally fall to an MA if caught. There is a reasonable cycle of combat, in fact, if you consider it albeit with some evade and stun tweaks which need to be applied!

The real issue remains the organisation populations, Zion is and probably always will be the largest org (they are the stars of the movie and the most identifyably human in their aim), outrageous as it might sound in the interest of good pvp, good rp and good community understanding I think Zion should resist the hacker tree, rely more on MA and gunman stuff allow the skills to assist balanced battles - it also fits with the movies again wasn't Zion up against the odds, didn't they employ these skills to fight with.....its time for each organisation to take its role seriously and there is no negative restriction on the player who can then simply change to the org that best suits them? Impractical this suggestion is I know but it is a solution we could all benefit from and its entirely within the capability of ourselves the players............ then again maybe I'm just crazy!!

Yeah good to hear we have someone putting effort into more than just PvP. Everyone here Rp's to some degree you simply would not be here if you did not, but in any event we should all be glad that there is a variety of ways with which to pass our time in the game and do everything we can to expand and develop further.

Thx and please keep up the good work

Cognoscente wrote:

Morpheus and his idiotic followers were not following Zion High Command. His terroristic actions lasted only for a short while and were only a brief glimpse of what could happen to bluepills when shocked into reality.

It was the Meroingian that resolved this issue, the machines were too inept and Zion clueless and in disarray. Consider that and the consequences had he not acted, as logic will clearly dictate the Merovingian does indeed regulate and control aspects of the matrix in a far more effective manner than the machines themsleves.

Evolution selects the strongest and most worthy by their ability to survive - an element ably demonstrated here, it is no accident that the Merovignian's power and influence continue to increase.

PBlade wrote:
That's 7 GMT I think, which means an event I can go to!

I believe (please correct me if I'm wrong) that Pst is GMT-8 and therefore this is 18:00 or 6pm GMT, looks very interesting so dont be late SMILEY

In truth EPN and Cypherties are mutually dependant, neither has any real goal to achieve, both are driven by revenge, both actively pursue a future already clearly proven to be impossible.....that one is led by a child and the other a raving lunatic does kinda give the hint that they cannot be trusted and should not be supported.... wisdom in either Zion or Machine ranks would seem to be in preciously short supply!

At the meeting in question Cryptos himself told his troops to 'attack the supporters of the Merovignian', the choice was his and the consequnce is apparent...if he isnt a lunatic then at the very least his judgement needs to be questioned, likewise the judgement of the EPN factions should be closely examined.... in both cases a conscious descision was made which had the sole effect of undermining everything either one of you claims to work for.

Cryptos annouced to all his orders to attack us, he denied any common sense, he acted to counter logic, he could have appealed for our support (as I pointed out as we fought)....in the end his orders actively damaged his own organisation, you tell me he is sane, well IF that is the case then the explanation falls to one of the following;

He is too stupid or proud to recognise an oppertunity to help himself (ironic then that he warned his enemies of hubris!)

He is too blinded by revenge to even percieve a way to help himself or anyone around him

He is not working in the interests of the cyphertites at all!

Actions speak louder than words and those actions condem him more assuredly than any degree of supposition.

Having given it some thought it strikes me that EPN can't really fail since they aren't actually trying to achieve anything? Basically what we have with this group is a bunch of children with 'Neo' complexes venting their inadequecies on the Matrix as a whole, we can grumble about machines, about Zion, about the Cypherites but at least they have an ambition. The only positive aspect of EPN is that its own futility will assure its eventual dissolution with or without our help lol!