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Cr2 widened the definition or what constitues an overwhelming force..... for impromtu pvp of the type we see every day on vector there is no pre arrangement, no balance and there never will be....therefore the system has to remain flexible to give a smaller force a degree of chance..I considered that chance just about acceptable under cr1 and attempted to address the problem of cr2 be4 it went live....I still feel that by changing the effect of defenses in the instance of IL we can acheive a balnce which allows full and varied lo's (stops the death sentence of getting caught in IL) and encourages impromptu pvp instead of discourages it..... that was the sole purpose of this thread.

Dxy wrote:

Frink14 wrote:

Exactly I hope the developers change the re-use time.

Sorry to do this, but waah waah waah. It's starting to become more apparent to me that players should have no impact on the development of a MMOG in any way shape or form, aside from bug hunting. Why is this? It's simple, because random player A. gets raped by random knife thrower/assassin/hacker whatever and gets pissed off. What do angry players shout from the rooftops? One of two things A. NERF! or B. SPLOIT!

The knife thrower tree has already been gimped excessively by making the re-use timer on the one ability that allowed us to ignore everyone else's INSANE thrown damage resistance (I'll get to that in a second) to 90 seconds so we can be balanced with the other gunner and MA trees. Hey guess what friends, knife throwers aren't gunners or MAs. There's no spy free fire, like MAs get melee free fire and gunners get to shoot people for 200-400 damage every 2-4 seconds. Pile on to that things like Dual Pistol Execution being useable outside interlock for very little IS cost and HIGH damage output, with a low re-use timer.

What do knife throwers have? We have three abilities which do reasonable DPS, for an average IS cost that don't require us to be stealthed. Subduing Throw, Throat Cutting Throw, and Deadly Throw. Also Neuro Dart which other misinformed neanderthals are screaming nerf on. I say f*ck that, if you nerf Neuro Dart, there goes any advantage knife thrower had over a gunner, since gunmen can't be disarmed anymore. Which doesn't REALLY matter since I have yet to notice a difference between Hyper Dodge being on, and off.

Onto the insane thrown damage resistance. Either the damage output for master knife thrower got gimped in the last hot fix, or the TDR got incredibly beefed up. Because I went from doing an amazing 400-600 damage, to a wimpy and almost useless 100-200 damage. Let's take a look at knife throwers damage output versus IS cost.

Before knife thrower got violated in the last hotfix my overall damage versus IS cost averaged 600-1000 damage (over time, within around 5-6 seconds) using up very near half my IS bar. Which is decent considering any gunman or MA can deal that much damage to someone and barely have any of their IS taken away. Now I'm averaging 500-600 damage over 5-6 seconds with **bleep** near ALL of my IS gone. These numbers are figured up by only using the 3 non stealthed abilities and the data was taken during a very intense PvP battle, in both cases. Which means I have to stealth and run away from the battle after killing someone. Master Knife Thrower is a support class yes, but it's not supposed to be so much a support class that I can't take someone by surprise and eat their souls.

I dunno.

Players cry nerf this, sploit that.

Babies.

An excellent post here and bang on the money; no one is factoring the IS cost and pitiful damage now that find weakness has been adjusted....miss a few knives as almost inevitably you do and whether you keep an opponent rooted or not is irrelevent you simply won't be able to finish them off cus they regen while you wait to do the last bit of damage....what's more I really cant understand why all the knife debuffs relate to Melee or Ballistic resistance, the spy should be debuffing thrown resistance surely so they can actually help themselves?

Great stuff SMILEY

More please!

It did pique a lot of ppl's interest here and was very well constructed, sadly the problem with all events is knowing how to respond to an unexpected reaction from the participants. I'm sorry you dont feel able to continue at present but I hope that before long you will be inspired to consider it part of the challenge of leading and event and will then take it further...

In a more real environment, (aka Vector :wink SMILEY

, there is no such issue!

krytical wrote:

I don't agree with this thread. Interlock is not really a trap unless you're outnumbered, and if you're outnumbered you should know better than to interlock someone in the middle of a zerg. I don't know about the rest of you, but in PvP battle with even odds I don't really attack those already interlocked. First, the longer two opponent stay in interlock the lowest their HP gets and the easier for you take them down afterwards. Second, why worry about two players interlocked? they're harmless to you, I'd be more worried about those snipers, MKTs or hackers that aren't interlocked. Luckily enough, we had a servers wars recently (Enumerator vs. Heuristic) on Vector and I can think of a good example that describes this situation. In the first fight, Heuristic interlocked and ganged up on one interlocked player at the start, leaving the other 50s do do whatever they wanted, BAD IDEA. Needless to say, they lost. If you're the kind of player that attacks the red already interlocked in a 2vs2 the chances of the 2nd red not interlocked being a sniper or MKT are high and the chances of him sniping and killing you and then killing your friend are even higher. When someone attacks you while you're already interlocked just sit back and laugh at how *CENSORED* their PvP tactics are.

Btw, MAs aren't tanks, there's no such thing in MxO because all classes can have the same HP and the same resistances. MAs are definitely not the kind of class that is able to kill a red in the middle of 5 and gets out alive either. If you're outnumbered, don't fight or at least fight and don't complain about interlock.

This thread is all about unbalanced combat, which I believe forms a significant majority of situations. Again the aim was to encourage and promote the widest variety of loadouts to each situation, here you are really mking it plain that if you are outnumbered you would be crazy to engage in IL.....which is exactly the point..... Question is should that be the case? Seems to me in doing so smaller orgs are restricted in the variety of LO they can effectively travel with? Equally the cries and shouts for nerfs primarily come from IL class players leading to a blanket strike on whole tree's - making a distinction or bias between defenses to damage taken from in IL to out of IL while you are IL could offer a significant tool to balancing all classes?

I dont know.... it was relevent before cr2 went live, I still think it was a valid but at this stage other factors and nerfs have perhaps left it behind

Regulus wrote:

EVERYONE should flag for EVERYONE

I'd like to think that could work, sadly in an environment where the lowest common denominator can ruin anything and everything I just see chaos...... At the moment there is no consequence to either death or killing, therefore we are totally reliant on the individual to 'behave appropriately'....lets have real consequences that make you consider your actions and then yeah I'm all for this idea.

In the meantime I do think allowing the splinter orgs a distinct pvp status makes a lot of sense....cyphs have more in common with Merovs than machines I just can't see the well ordered machines tolerating the more extreme behaviour of cyph or EPN. And EPN should find out just how isolated their purile aims makes them.

THE SPY CLASS IS NOT A SUPPORT CLASS!

Spy is a field operative branching appropraitely from the Operative arm, by definition it is the most solo class in MxO.

Specific abilities taken in isolation can be regarded as overpowered but then so others can be seriously underpowered, proper consideration of the overall picture needs to be taken before further nerfs are even suggested!

It is the only organisation that recongises the ambition of an individual. He doesn't insist on blind loyalty, we aren't required to trust him any more that we demand he trusts us, he understands we have our own agenda's and doesn't intrude unless they conflict with his own. I dont want to be led by someone else's morality or conscience as Zion would demand nor do I want the narrow minded quest for stale equilibrium as presented by the Machines. The matrix is a world of oppertunity where our ablities as redpills position us perfectly to aquire and enjoy power, wealth and influence...where else are such aims encouraged?

I can't fully identify it yet but something weird is also happening with spystyle on death. Hover your pointer over the spystyle upgrade after a death and a variety of leeser buffs are displayed which never appear to recover unless you log out and back in?

I don't really know you wolv but since the merger we have fought side by side on a number of occasions, sorry therefore to see you go and I'll join in wishing you all the best.

Re other comments here; I know in my case I have many friends in many factions and accross all organisations, its clear from your original post you do likewise - as has been said it's not the org, it's not the faction its just people some you like some you dont....on balance to date my experience has been to the positve side and its that that I like to take from the game etc and I hope you do likewise.

MaRKiE wrote:

On an unrealted topic but feel i want to put it somewhere so here will do, yesterday i was at Tabor and i saw a lone level 50 zion, so i attack and kill him, only for the rest of his mission team to come out of the building on kill me...whoops, while cold and dead on the floor i ask them in all seriousness if they get bored of always out numbering other orgs 3/4/5 to 1. To which they reply "yeh it gets really boring, but what can we do about it?"

i can think of one thing...its not too hard...it'll take you about a day of missions on easy....turn to another org?

Personally I would always choose to attack a zion in preference to a machine (regardless of numbers the ultimate goal of the Machine and Merov orgs are far more in tune with one another than those of Zion)........

With regards to that Zion's thoughts on the odds there is an even simpler solution, the Zions do not have to call ALL their mates.....heres an idea you get attacked by 3 ppl call 2 buddies and make it an even affair or call just 1 show your skill and really crow that for once YOU beat the odds? All the options are there with ZION not so with the other organisations!

Very cool post, but your chosen course will not end well for you, or your friends!

Is it just me or is it frighteningly easy to lose the spystyle buff? I'll be fighting fine then all of a sudden I look up to notice I'm back at self defence status?

Recently I risked again using weapons with my spystyle lo....what a mess! the system window spends so much time telling which style its switching between it forgets either to fire or throw the knife I just clicked!! Is the problem simply that there is no corresponding freefire buff to spystyle (and I suspect hacker style et al) and if so why...surely there should be parity between IL style and free fire (in which case the system would presumably work ok)?

From my previous experience with KFGM weapons seem to live with it harmoniously, can this be achieved with spy and other styles please!

Yes I think its a very positive use of what currently appears a redundant ability...let it give a defence or resistance buff to those in IL against the external free-fire activity....

If free fire attacks cant be isolated (as I suspect will be the case) then allow the ability to analyse the loaded buffs of the two combatants and buff the two resistances not in use for that IL.

ie

if an Ma IL with a gunman then multifighting adds a 20% bonus to thrown and viral defence etc

if a hacker IL with an MA then multifighting adds a 20% bonus to Ballistic and thrown etc

Must be disconcerting for the soldiers that whereever Zion take them, whatever Zion shows them those vultures just keep circling over their heads, their demise is ever more assured but the real joy is that Zion voluteers to join them lmao!

Ah the camera loves me! Finding me of course can be a very costly exercise SMILEY

Celebrate while you can, the end of this story will be written with your blood!

The spy tree has been hit by nerfs in almost every patch mostly because people cba to buff their thrown resistance and whine like crazy even though its entirely their own fault....it has now been over-nerfed and needs some tlc by the devs....the one exception to this I have to conceed is the neurodart which sits too high in the tree for the debuffs it gives (these debuffs should perhaps be switched to one of the top level side branches). Thrown accuracy needs a definite improvement or the IS cost needs to be reduced for every throw.

many suggestions have been made but it continues to be nerfed because there are about three really great moves (spread over the entire spy tree).... and spy almost by definition cannot work properly in a non-hostile environment (if you know when and where hes comming from its kinda redundant). That said there is much to enjoy and as long as you dont mind crossing assassin/mkt/MS there is a decent build or two to be had (in isolation the individual branches dont work well like the soldier tree does).....good to see you back btw SMILEY

It's an idea but tbh I don't think there is any evidence we have to suggest a connection between these characters at present.....

I read and appreciate very much your writing but unless I read everything simultaneously on the board I dont tend to comment very often...and then its not a case of ignoring this or anyone else's work, unless its an rp reply I dont generally feel qualified SMILEY

Indeed Spy is the only class that cannot debuff an enemy for its own damage type (thrown) therefore it makes sense for the find weakness ability to buff the way it does and be different from the MA and Gunman buffs.

The Neurodart debuffs ride too high in the tree which is leading to a saturation useage, tbh a swap with the sever artery debuffs might be the answer.

I'll be honest I didnt realise why people would try and IL me then creep back with that ineffectual little jump, a very lame tactic on their part and something that does need addressing.... I have however fallen foul of the opposite problem, I was dragged into IL mid hyper Jump subsequently I could not activate any special moves as the system kept reporting I 'need to be standing for that ability'

Good work guys, the commandos chose the wrong allies, the wrong enemy and the wrong time to begin their operation....three wrongs certainly do not make a right!

Cherish the few victories you can, but for you the party is at an end, the future is ours.

Excellent stuff, looking forward to seeing more SMILEY

Redpills have been gifted with a wonderful oppertunity, powers we could previously only dream of, a world to shape in our own image.......consider the rewards you could enjoy, the power, the wealth, the freedom are you really ready to turn your back on that? Don't be misled - the aspiration of a cypherite is total surrender, the aspiration of a Merovingian, total control - are you to be the leaf in the wind or the force of nature itself?

Once again Zion redefines discretion and secrecy lmao...

Sorry but I can't resist pulling out this gem from a Zionist talking to another Zionist :smileyvery-happy:

SaintDaniel: u ever hear of stun bottleneck stun bottleneck stun

It's reassuring to see you genuinely appreciate the danger you face, Zion's future is indeed bleak, like the landscape of the burned world they want us to live in. Poor Alsos its no wonder he is so slow to develop, he knows this insult to Entropi will be repaid 100fold, for every Recon there is a statistical chance of irrevokable failure, Alsos and Zion have voluteered themselves as the subject of a fascinating study.

As always revenge is sweet, and today Downtown felt the Merovingian backlash. Maribeau, South Vauxton and Creston Zion bodies littered the floor, the zerg of Trinity, RLD and Prior de Sion tasted bitter humiliation and its just the beginning, a work in progress so to speak - as ye sow so shall ye reap...

MaRKiE wrote:

....whoops, while cold and dead on the floor i ask them in all seriousness if they get bored of always out numbering other orgs 3/4/5 to 1. To which they reply "yeh it gets really boring, but what can we do about it?"

It was to that comment and to the Zion's who feel that way that my post refers mainly.

I have come to expect the Zerg response and adapt accordingly (btw it is the response only that is at fault imo any group can come accross another group and engage regardless of size its what happens when the reconstruct button is pressed that makes it a lame practice or not). In truth a lot of this problem stems from the practice of having and battle and hanging around....in the real world once you have killed the enemy they really arent going to come back ... and the attacking force would hence move on..... Indeed last night a solid Merov force was doing just that it was more fun and more rewarding at the end of the day than just hanging around a HL waiting for the action to come to us!

/Disagree Orien

it is obvious to me a lot of people do want player events, on these boards we can see even hardcore PvP'er saying they want more..the level of Rp interaction may be in doubt (although all we need for success is to ensure there is no 'unRP' if you understand). As with all these threads atm some patience is required we have the people willing and able to do a great deal with the game, the new community needs a mo to come to terms with itself but I know from our experiences on a certain other server (which is now dead so I will not mention it) that it can work.

We are posied and ready, a Merovingian paradise can be constructed on Zion and Machine Hell.

yeah another very cool suggestion which could work well given the environment, I'd give it support etc. oH and as regard plundering ideas from other games...if they are good ideas lets have more please SMILEY

Message Edited by Tytanya_MxO on 08-24-2005 05:22 AM

Curious isn't how a faction susposedly making no inpact is the only faction to regulalry feature in a thread title on a board other than in the recruiting section....... I see and frequently fight side by side with them, there is no one better to have with you going into battle, it would be very wise for you all to consider the facts and to use a well worn phrase *CENSORED*!

krytical wrote:
Entropi has been added to the Hunt IV black list and marked for deletion, she's history. Any further resistance is futile.

I'll be there when you less expect it.

The History of machine's is one of missed oppertunity, I think what you really mean is you will be less when we most expect it!

itszen wrote:

as far as i have seen your about as good at PvP as the others in that Faction .... all i see you guys doing now is either running away or fighting one person with about 100 of you onto them .... pretty cool huh....

LMAO Zen I'd love to have some of what you've been smokin' - I've lost count of the number of times we've owned COZ, but what I havent lost count of is the number of times I've fought with the odds on my side and I can comfortably get to that number using the digits of one hand....... you may well see me running away I concede at Mara its generally me and perhaps one or two others looking to pick off stragglers within the 30+ zions that regularly camp there, sorry if I missed your name but as you may imagine (and as a Zion you would have to imagine) with so much red text, so very densely packed you all become just one big faceless target!....

Punt'ya later dude!

Very good news indeed, mucho thanks to the devs for listening and making a work-around.

repost from my vector entry;

Handle: Tytanya

Affiliation: Merovingian

Political Preference: Hostile (unsure how that works?)

Belief in Neo: If he really had such power why didnt he take control himself, I guess he was just a guy in the right place at the right time.

On The Question of Freeing Minds: They are better off and more use to us where they are.

On the Matrix: The Matrix is a world of oppertunity we redpills can shape in our own image....imagination is our only limitation.

On the real: Our existence there is a small price for the almost limitless potential we have inside, however there must be some way to overcome the limitations it places on our longevity.

Content reliant upon wave after wave of npc spawns is about the most uninteresting and uninvolving thing i can imagine - we need content that promotes the ongoing storyline, that exploits the players versatility to enhance the challenge to other players (not repetative mechanical AI), we need area's to contest, bases to build and defend, we need the city to come alive and give us reasons to be somewhere at some time, we need organisational and factional identity to mean something....current content seems to be focussing on making us mark time when it should be giving us something of interest to do or achieve..there are some tweaks in 52 that are worthwhile, or will be in the long run methinks, but the additional content just fails to add anything to the game imo and its disspapointing to think any dev time was spent on it!