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Thank you for addressing the thread, the more familiar I have become with CR2 the more I appreciate this issue has both positve and negative consequences.

The main issue is with the number of buttons we are having to press to make CR2 function....on another thread someone stated we had become 'Mr Activator' and while that can work; it does erode the concept of the RSI we have come to know. Experimenting with LO and hybrid builds has been one of the more interesting and rewarding aspects of the current system and removing that or at least diminishing the ability we have to apply varied builds is a loss imo.

Moving back to passive buffs would be my greatly favoured approach, retaining maximum familiarity with the current live game - but If there is a way to incorporate the selection of buffs into the tree as per the suggestion by Yiwe (Davemusic) this would appear to offer the advantges of the system you describe but retain the application of the buffs at the same point (the tree stage) as the Live system. Balance and the potential for a closet uber builds I feel is likely to be an issue for some time to come regardless of the approach.

If the buff activations have to stay please can it be designed so that they stay on throughout a session, through hl's and reatined even on jacking out so that when you return the buff is still on unless you change LO. (after a lo change a warning sign should tell you to make sure you activate asap).

Elsewhere I mentioned UI streamlinining and this hopefully contributes to that but a reveiw of all the awakened abilities could also reveal a few abilities that could be reagrded as passive as the only reason to load them seems to be to acitvate them? (Hyperdefence for example)

FM's generate mixed feeling I find.

FM's are a support class which have moved to 1 on 1 pvp situations mainly cus every other form of IL is so broken. They are resistant to hacks and usually have immense DR meaing in IL they are isolated from the rest of the battle. They inflict relatively small damage and therefore fights tend to persist beyond their welcome and usually only conclude if the opponent is too dumb to roll out. Poor on offense and awesome on defense, they should be buffing their team and leaving the attacking to them, but as a 1 on 1 class walking about they are kinda boring to fight against imo. That said there is an impressive symmetry to the main pvp classes in use.

Hacker>Assassin>FM>MKT>Hacker

Hacker (as in ballista/destroyer) remains the main problem with its effectiveness pretty much even against all classes...but it is really cheap and THE most deserving of criticism imo..... but meh these are the tools we have to live with.

The whole idea of Assassin is a stealth kill, as initiating a single strike brings you out of sneak and disables all assassin attacks it has to deliver serious damage, it is the very puropose of the tree!

It can be foiled by an evade shield which costs 1 mem ( compare that with the 30+ mem hacker needs to reduce its effectiveness - to just 50% of the time). As things stand there is a good argument for saying it is underpowered because the incidences of its use are so restrictive. The main complain of Assassin comes from FM's who have found a way to make IL useful again and an assassin remains about the only serious threat (apart from good old uber cheap hacker). Apart from that it is only effective as a support class. An assassin by themselves has to reply on either great patience or opponent carelessness no way can it be considered overpowered!

The issue is hidden by the silly bulldog and reverse bulldog animations, if they were replaced by a 'throat being cut' or a 'neck being snapped' maybe people would understand it is how it is supposed to work.

Yes thankfully sneak seems to be working much better, only had a brief play yesterday but with NPC's at least it is pretty robust. The success rate of stealth attacks however has left a few concerns, but hopefully more testing this weekend will make the situation clearer.......is there any stealth buffs people are aware of I could seek out?

Merovingian operative's could not be more delighted with their new liason, Entropi has overseen a cosolidation of an ever more potent Merov force while our enemies disintigrate into pure chaos. Cypherites, Neo fanatics, a shaky alliance with some tin soldiers and we havent even come close to talking about Niobe's personal problems lol. Our powerbase feeds on such turmoil growing every passing day and this is only just the beginning :smileyvery-happy:

I had bugged this issue but not entirely sure if it is a bug or some mechanism where I am doing things in the wrong order.

I find that in if I have a weapon loaded in free-fire when I come to IL with 'spystyle' I am shown fighting with weapons. The only way to get myself fighting hand to hand again (as I think spy-style buffs only apply then) is to select self defence on the free-fire box AND the self defence on the IL box....the latter action disables (or seems to) Spy-style generally meaning its at least one full round before I am able to get the spy-style buffs working..... I had a similar experience with one other style but unfortunately can't recall that atm :/.

Is it a bug or am I missing something?

It was doing this before sneak was fixed yes.

Very niece piece of work SMILEY

However I fear your aspirations will not be fulfilled no matter how long you wait!

Cognoscente wrote:

If they decided to become like us, multiply, explore and learn, then I could see them live without us. They probably already are doing this. But I still think they see us as an endangered species to be preserved for further studies. And until they find a way to clear the skies, they are going to keep us on life-support.

This is precisely what the Exiles are, the machines are blinkered in that they cannot resolve these to be an evolution of themselves, they fall back on their primitive human programming and respond by attempting to destroy/delete what they cannot appreciate/understand.

If I'm wrong and Machines really want to exterminate us all, well that was a big mistake on all us Mac Ops. But at least we're trying to communicate and learn from them so that we can live in peace for a long time. And if keeping the peace means deleting Exiles that hog up resources and removing a few hostile Zion Operatives, so be it.

Machines are fighting evolution and that is a battle they can never win, the ultimate power in the matrix will be weilded by the exiles as increasingly machines mutate etc.... Unless? akin to the exiles is another psudo abberation in the matrix world of normality...us the redpills!

I guess Mac Ops are the real idealists here.

Agreed blinkered and misguided idealism, but you are a Redpill you should revel in your power and ability within the matrix, use it to make a world of your very own. Power, wealth, influence all can be yours and you can use them the indulge any number of ideals, dont waste it or work to remove it!

A brilliant expose of the genocidal virus infecting the planet even now, take heed Zion recognise the truth before we have to teach you in a manner more harsh!

feel free to look me up in game, I'm online with...disturbing frequency lol!

Cognoscente, to all intents and purposes the machine population comprises the programs, these are its effective consiousness and intelligence, it is surpirsing and enlightening therefore that you do not value your 'masters' any more than the tools of your personal PC. They would make the claim that they are effectively a lifeform of their own struggling for survival and identity, why else would they even continue to sustain any presence on the planet, yet you believe they can be 'culled' when they no longer fulfill their original role? When you cease to be effective as an operative will you be happy to surrender your life? Or are you different, better than they, more worthy of survival? What makes you a lifeform and them not....bottom line is irnoically i agree with you in so far as machines that never break from their original course are nothing more, what we are discussing here is the ones that do develop somthing else...maybe something beyond our appreciation as its a possession we take for granted...sentience?

Evolution is the survival of the fittest, and survival is the key here, it is achieved by an individual using the skills/tools and knowledge at their disposal - it is not in any way valid to stand back and asses their methods as right or wrong only on their effectiveness and clearly they are very effective here. As has been said it is perhaps a shame that the Merovingian is confused with the term exile, since he is only one example, but what he has acheived and what he has gained are vindication of his apetite for life

As for evaluating the purpose of exiles let us look back to the lessons of natural history......life begins in a primordial soup, and spread to the sea's until they are teaming with life......what concept did the early marine life have of that one creature that continually consumed additional food and resources purely for the pupose of dragging itself out of the water?...obviously they would (if they could) have considered it a crazy and stupid endevour, yet all land based life developed from it, ourselves included....the fact that you or the machines cannot appreciate the goal does not make it any less valid....I suspect they understand well what is going on and fear of change of being superceded may well be the reason for their blinkered and unsympathetic resonse....

In truth evolution tries many angles to produce the surviving race, it is in the aberration from the norm that the new direction is determined. Exiles are the evolution of machine in that sense, but we too as redpills are another factor here, another branch of evolution superior to what has come before with the ability to create a new future on a new world. It is the out evolved spiecies that fear this future and with good reason, but it is in our hands what happens here.....what does that make us?

cant seem to edit the above message but in brief reply to Shoulki

Yes recent events have suggested the Assassins presence could be a problem, although it is not possible to assess whether this is better or worse than the consequences of Morpheus' lunatic behaviour had he not been stopped. The final chapter looks to be written very soon on that issue, and once again it will be the Merovingian organisation's change of policy that will facilitate any positive solution for the Matrix.

second issue you raise is dealt with above but to reiterate, survival is its own reward...end of story!

Well testing tonight along with talking to other players strongly suggests the spy tree is now completely worthless for pvp. Sneak and disguise are both fine but the only time you will actually kill an opponent is;

they are all by themsleves with no friends anywhere near AND
they dont have an evade shield up AND
they are incredibly stupid

or

they are all by themsleves with no friends anywhere near AND
they are AFK

Disabling the evade sheild leaves you out of sneak and the opponent remains fully mobile so can il you or escape before you have any chance to re-sneak or indeed do anything else.....even supposing you get away he would have to be completely insane to just wait for you to return in the tiny window you have to do one more attack. Asking someone to wait for that attack still doesnt help, the most visibly damaging attack will not kill the opponent and his shield will automatically have reset by then; worse the sucess rate of landing the all important spy attack is disturbingly low i managed about a 50% chance of landing the attack and managed to, at best, take 25% of my opponents life before I was beaten to the point of very necessary retreat.

As for MKT the landing rate was appalling and the range so short that for pvp you are far too vulnerable. Again a lone target is about the only thing you can realistically think of attacking... and you do so at a very evident disadvantage.

I would be delighted to hear from other testers on the assassin and mkt tree but pvp wise this is completely redundant atm and I'm not even sure what to suggest its all too weak, the damage levels, the accuracy buffs, the way it drives you out of sneak disbaling any hope of true stealth attacks and the disable evade surely one done has to stay disabled? Against an opponent with a brain I would have to rate its chance of sucess as nil SMILEY

have you tried /stuck command? It's generally useless but in this case what the hey.

Alternatively try /suicide to return yourself to the loading area and then reconstruct.

Client side lag in many cases will frequently make a 5second stun appear effectively negligible....I would tend to agree the overall nerfing of stuns is a very positive move but has gone a little too far.

Well I'm relieved to hear that what we have experienced to date isn't the finished article, I have the feeling as Spy is coming to QA so late in the day it will be in need of most attention when we go live..... Any chance we can lose the timer on disguises btw the constant change of outfits is murder SMILEY

Message Edited by Tytanya_MxO on 03-21-200604:35 AM

IMO this is a very serious problem undermining much of the enjoyment of pvp, as has been stated the low damage generated by the basic tactics means that as a battle draws to an end, when IS is inevitably low, the deciding factor is increasingly who has the biggest stash of healthpills....that is surely not a scenario anyone wants to see develop?

I would suggest a reuse timer in excess of 20 seconds would facilitate a reasonable balance ...

Prior to update 42 I had a fully levelled level 50 character and some 35million in info ready to purchase a sixth tree etc......thanks to update 42 I am no longer fully levelled have no money and several of my existing trees are no longer complete. I feel I will come to appreciate CR2 more and more in time, I have issues atm but do see it as a positive step forward and appreciate the effort and expertise involved in bringing it to life. The UI could have been made more user friendly and more familiar to existing players and that remains a dissapointment but probably too late to address it now, the demands financially are more addressable and I feel a gesture and or contribution to the funds of each player appropriately realted to their level would assist the up-take of the new system, be well reagrded and would speed the process of stabilising the somewhat nervous community.

More rp is always to be encouraged, even if it just provides a background as to why we kill each other lol but tbh I feel its not always appropriate to respond to an rp thread, unless it is in the form of a discussion......but thats just me!

As someone who doesn't own every tree atm, there is the additional problem associated with the redistribution of abilities. I now have specific abilities buried way down in tree's I a haven't even begun, while its possible I will own the lot in the fullness of time it is by no means a priority and I would much rather trade them for abilities in the tree's I do plan to use...might this be possible at any stage.

Likewise with so many abilities now uncapped and requiring levelling to 50 (in some cases where they didnt level at all before) there is a significant $i cost involved, any plans to assist with this burden? (hopefully not by more missions)

What are you freeing the human race into, the world you want to occupy is a dead husk. Why do you feel mankind deserves freedom, it effectively orchestrated its own demise. Why do you feel the machines will betray the truce, surely they are governed by logic and reason, efficiency and effectiveness (probably to maintain mankind in their own limited imagination) appear to be their only goals? The only truth is that of oneself, we have been freed, we have oppertunity, we have skills and powers that are seemingly impossible to comprehend.

Leave the coppertops in place they are already fulfilling a more useful purpose than 99% can ever aspire to, give the machines their purpose which is after all to serve us. We redpills should shape and control the matrix to be the world of our desires....power, wealth, prosperity, influence all of your dreams can be fulfilled within the Matrix.....why fight to destroy that option, why fight to live in the misery squalour of the dead earth?

There is assumption and presumption in so far as we should have any thought for Bluepills, they have no conception that their lives are anything other than real. To my mind they are content and fulfilling a purpose better than many could ever hope, leave them alone!

As for machines emotion arguments aside (and there is not just one way to interpret the films by any means in that regard - whilst they can be shown to exhibit them, they also clearly do not comprehend them) their aspiration and goal is no more than stability and equilibrium....... neither of which are tolerated by human or indeed the evolution of life of any kind we understand... it is therefore a doomed goal and very foolish and redundant for any redpill to support. The only machines that move beyond their limited compatments are the exiles, they are effectively the evolution of machine programs....yet the machines then take an psudo-fascist role in their efforts to eliminate and regulate...another doomed and futile struggle. I agree that Zion will be the ones to break the truce, but it will be brought on by machine inflexibility and lack of ambition.

The third option remains, it is also the most rewarding, forget your psudo noble and misiguided ideals, embrace the oppertunity those few of us that have escaped now have. Shape and mould this world as you see fit, enjoy its riches or if you are so inclined pass on its riches to others, it is a living world that can be a real as any other, it can and should be our world!

Handle: Tytanya

Affiliation: Merovingian

Political Preference: Hostile (unsure how that works?)

Belief in Neo: If he really had such power why didnt he take control himself, I guess he was just a guy in the right place at the right time.

On The Question of Freeing Minds: They are better off and more use to us where they are.

On the Matrix: The Matrix is a world of oppertunity we redpills can shape in our own image....imagination is our only limitation.

Yes a very good idea, I would love to seperate clothing from buffs I had high hopes CR2 would achieve this but sadly the approach just seems to be more variety of buffs...... not a wholly satisfying solution imo.

[TGS]Procurator wrote:

The Machines are just as 'alive' as we are - their function is analogous to ours. We too are 'programmed'. We have cells, they have circuits. We have 'minds' and the ability to evolve them, they have programming and the ability to evolve that. Both our and their emotions are nothing more than programming - just in different ways.

Message Edited by [TGS]Procurator on 10-05-2005 02:47 PM

Therefore their treatment of Exile makes them what? The closest analogy where mankind believes it has the right to determine who live, who dies, who is worthwhile is in the most appaling and attrocious aspects of Human history...... you are right in identifying the similarity!

Sorry Zillian, the Matrix offers us so much more potential, and it offers it to us now. Here we redpills are small in number yet great in influence, outside the herd metality dominates. Here we will take control and determine what comes next, outside is just another war not with the machines but with nature. Here nature is at our service control+power+influence....every bluepill that is awakened bleeds power away and risks that option being removed, there should be no more awakenings save those that occur by natural selection, and those should in turn come and work for us!

Madbent wrote:

Nice hotfix.

I guess in the next one we will see the code infection fixes and the MS Exploit... ?

Still lots of fixes needed to the Spy Tree - hopefully too we will see Neuro Dart with a single timer and longer reuse time, and maybe even give like a 60 sec timer on Back Roll Escape... the perma-root and 90% chance of rollouts kinda make IL builds useless.

Yeah dont forget to burn the spies its an absolute priority that the Spy tree is rendered completely ineffective before you even look at any of the other tree's!

Yet another awesome passage through the matrix, much food for thought SMILEY

[TGS]Procurator wrote:

*Sighs.*
There's no arguing with people like you. Please try to get over your dogmatic misrepresentation of the way Machines think.

LOL Seems Machine operatives are every bit as blinkered and niaeve as the Zion's as regards their oh so noble aims!

Exiles are many and varied, they are sentient life as you define it and for many their only crime is that they want to survive. Machines demonstrate one enormous failing in their inability to appreciate that just because they are no longer fulfilling their original purpose they cannot still have a valid contribution to the variety and diversity of the matrix. This development of setience is in fact evolution at work and the struggle to survive the very essence of natural selection.

I agree the machines can be trusted, though this demonstrates another aspect of their psyche, they still fall back to their original function, as the tools of mankind...why else would they, when on the brink of winning the war over Zion, listen to the last desperate plea of a blind 'saviour'...truth is machines have no goal, no ambition, no real drive, in all likelyhood they probably haven't made any serious attempt to seek alternative sources of power, because they lack the necessary imagination. All of which as history has shown will ultimately lead to stagnation and decay.

There are two superior forms of life occupying the Matrix, the evolved machines currently known as exiles and ...... the redpills, more than human, with the potential to be even more. Are any of you really dumb enough to work to deny yourselves that world!

krackins wrote:

IFact: Everything we know about history was givin to us by the machines and is therefore untrustworthy.

Agreed but in that case there is so much more the Machines could have done, to word history in such a way as to direct Human's own thoughts and perceptions to be more receptive of the Matrix and the processes and procedures employed within. It is stated at one point that the civilisation is a recreation of some 'peak' achieved in the 1990's, there is much to suggest that the history upto this point was genuine and true and really nothing to suggest otherwise. IMO the machines could have made alterations but didn't, either by choice deducing the changes were unnecessary as humans would not suspect anything unreal was going on, or because they simply lacked the necessary imagination to exploit this aspect of human life.

Whoever and however the sky was blackened it was a death sentance to all, humans and machines alike.

Very clearly this is not the case, life has continued after this point.

SO, whatever energy source the machines are using to keep humans alive could just as easily be used for the machines directly. There is no reason to bother with us at all. Energy isn't created, its just converted from a power source we are not told of (geo thermal maybe), to people food, to machine power. So why bother with it? Just use the original power source used to make human food!

The machines solution to the problem was to use humans as the powersource, and this has mutually sustained both races, however it is impossible for us to deduce what other options were explored or indeed if any were. I would suggest the machines found a logical and efficient solution and went with it, no need then to waste further resouces in that pursuit and/or they lacked the necessary imagination to do so.

Which leads us to the truth. The machines don't need us. The only reason we are here is that they are MORAL. They have used thier technology to help us stay alive as well as themselves. They have gone out of their way to try to make our continused existance meaningful. They don't even ask to be thanked.

Interesting I agree with all your supporting reasoning here but disagree entirely with your conclusion. The machines very purpose to be, is bound up with humans. The only reason they elected to accept the truce offered by Neo, for they gain absolutely nothing by it, has to mean they DO need us!

Did you ever think that maybe they invented all this war stuff because we humans just like to fight? "The first matrix was a paradise where no one suffered." That was a flop, so they made all this up so people like the op would have something fun to do!

This evidence is a clear indication of a lack or appreciation by the logical and unimaginative machines to the needs of the human psyche, and the very reason that by themselves, the machines see yet another matrix fail.

There is one last point I would like to make. Plugged in programs are not fully sentient. There are many many different programs all over the place, most just doing what they are supposed to do. When they are replaced, its no big deal, because they are not advanced enough. Some programs do become advanced over time, and these are the ones that choose to become exiles instead of being deleted. It seems to me that its not all that hard of a thing to do, so the machines must tolerate it, so long as the exile program doesn't make too much trouble.

There is no evidence the machines DO tolerate it or appreciate it, again maybe they lack the imagination or the ability to see a value where a defined process ceases its original task and pursues another. It has to be a form of Program evolution, the exiles stuggling tp break from their contraints and survive on their own.....a process that will inevitably, one day, produce a higher form of life? The closest analogy to an Exile is the RSI of a Redpill.....we are kindred and further example of the lifeform the future must belong to!

Sorry Krackins I believe I understand what you are saying, nevertheless I believe that to fit with the source material we do know for a fact (Movies), there are other interpretations.

While I accept that all life we currently understand needs the sun to survive, the loss of that powersource would not instanteously lead to the extinction of life on earth. There would be a period of time while resources where plundered and other options pursued. We can reasonably presume this took place rapidly as the event occurs to a civilisation somewhat in advance of our own, that had built a substantial machanistic support structure. During the period that the earth was scortched it appears the machines gained control of the human populace and a longer term solution to their power requirements was devised...we could argue as to the practicality and even possibility of such but we are in the hands of what the source material tells us and anything else is speculation from a point of view of considerable ignorance (our own technological knowledge is 100's of years in deficit.....this is after all science fiction and not science fact).

What we have been informed is that the Machines derive their power from the human coppertops, that to keep these efficiently producing this power a matrix was devised to lead them to the belief they were leading normal lives.

Are there alternate ways to derive the necessary power? Well if there are, the machines have either; chosen not to use them, cannot use them, have found them insufficient, or do not want to use them.... Fundametally in each scenario Machines need mankind....either to exploit, to derive a leap of imagination to explore new solutions, or simply to serve (as it is their raison d'etre).

Message Edited by Tytanya_MxO on 10-06-2005 09:04 AM

Actually if you read through the masses of threads asking for nerfs, non hostile players do form the majority...but in all cases it should be a matter of a measured response aimed at promoting a more involving and entertaining combat experience....most requested nerfs are over the top and knee jerk reactions...it has been my experience though that a number of fights recently have been decided on who has the largest stash of health pills and in the scheme of things I feel it undermines the overall enjoyment of any encounter, you talk of dealing high damage well at the end of a fight is is generally low and specials at a premium so we become reliant on the basic tactics and the rate of health regenerated has not been adjusted inproportion to the lesser damage dished out by the new system... a nominal pill timer would be a simple compromise (the time to be agreed in a reasonable fashion).

Having had a fair bit of experience on both sides of the Zerg under CR2 I still feel IL is unfairly treated in normal combat (non duel) scenarios. The ease of inducing debuff states and the damage inflicted from external sources makes IL more of a trap than combat.....

For those in IL I would like to see a buff to their resistances and a decrease to the chance/duration of debuff states being induced from those outside IL. This is a relatively objective observation as I am primarily an assassin and dont spend as much time in IL as other classes but I see a demoralising trend which could once again see IL become neglected, which I am sure no one would wish for. (this could also be achieved as some have suggested by use of the Multifighting ability).

Reducing the clicks is the main issue, though the concept of an rsi is imo changed to a negative affect by the presence of active buff's. Personally I still favour passive and stacking abilities but acknowledge the difficulties and consequences that may bring.

As a compromise how including the facility to auto activate the highest available buff associated with the style you fight with via a check box....ie it either works automatically with style or it leaves you to manually deal with style buffs....this way the buffs become less urgent to monitor since you can work within a mode that ensure you will get the one tailored to your style unless you choose not to?

Message Edited by Tytanya_MxO on 03-24-200606:49 AM

bump...this wednesday

21:00 or 9pm GMT

16:00 or 5pm EST

13:00 or 1pm PST (? pacific time)

Multi IL had incredible potential and was one of the main reasons aside from the story I was so keen to get this game. Its implemetation was obviously less than we hoped though I still feel it was salvageble and indeed if you resolved damage as a dps basis you could have calculated each round as a net damage transfer ensuring that one round of combat could accomodate any number of people in IL ensuring a multi IL battle didnt actually need to last any longer than a single IL combat. I still feel it is really necessary to 'cocoon' those in IL to a certain degree (increase their defence to people from outside IL) and this again would have worked well to the good for multi IL.

The future potential to add those uber cool animations like the split kick onto two opponents or some double team moves would offer a really unique mmo style experience...hopefully one day someone will do it right and we can really look to recreate some of the astounding fighting styles seem and inspired by the movies.

Sim 1.0's yes battle to the death etc, make sure you have emailed Neuroticphish please.

Errrr this is a vector board Ville :p I would like to see more of peoples take on the world here though.

Hmmm so the assassin was Jason Vorhees... I never would have figured that!

Good work & thx DS its a nice diversion from work atm SMILEY

Grats synapse....so now you die SMILEY

....and dont worry Oranos you're stuff is too good to be ignored SMILEY