I am looking for a silenced halsey and/or lalone AM sniper rifle. 10mill each sounds like a reasonable offer for something that is decom/codable but I will give 15mill each if someone can get me both rifles before I get either one.

Send me a /tell or email in game, I rarely check these boards.

Haxadec

In my expereince it isn't a given tree that is over or under powered for any one reason, it comes down to the individual (or group) you are fighting against/with. For example, there are some people who no matter what tree I am useing or what tree they are useing they are always tough to put down. But there are also some who are just always total push overs.

I know that is kind of an easy answer, and I don't know why some people are tougher then others so I guess I have to assume it is just because they know the trees better or what not. That said, the IS cost of MA moves only appear to be high at first glance but thats not looking at the whole picture. You have to aslo consider gear and basic strategys such as attacking the weakest opponent. I mean, the IS cost is nothing if you attack a MKT or sniper who is wearing all commando gear when you figure that MA prowess + tomo can easily be a 1 hit KO...for 65 IS.

What abilities or combos in other trees beat that? not many.

I plan on jacking in tommorow (friday) between 8:00-8:30PM MCT if anyone I havint fought can be online at that time I'd be glad to fight.

 Haxadec

Sign me up, is that 1200MCT?

Haxadec

Sir. you have a mistake for Windfaller, he didn't win any against me.

Also with the current records Ex and I are not the only ones who could still win first place, with only 1 lose so far Ves still has a chance, he just has to win every fight from here out. And the chance that Ves might win first is no worse then mine and no worse than Ex's.

Oh grats to the winners thus far =)

I can jack in this weekned if anyone wants to throw down...just name the time.

If its not too late then I'd like to sign up; tho I won't be able to participate in the MA portion if it is held too early in the day.

Name: Haxadec
Crew: The UnderGroundCrew
Faction: The Daniel Institute of Dream Interpretation
Neurokinetic Level: 50
Tournament: Martial Arts, Gunman, Hacker

And I gotta ask =( ... will the hacker portion be limited to the viral half of the hacker tree? And, will the self defense martial arts style be allowed? (I am trying really really hard to withhold my opinion here)

And I have to request everyone involved to consider a round robbin style. I feel this should provide a much more accurate assessment of skill and generaly be more fun for the participants then the traditional tournament style.

Hax

*checks his clip*

Yea I still got a few rounds left, and I will never lose my steady aim. Count me in! =)

Haxadec

Rule 8...

"You must choose and load your attire before the fight starts, no changes will be allowed."

Can we change loads/attire between rounds? or between fights? (1 round = 1 duel....1 fight = 3/5 duels)

I'm hoping this is on weekends, otherwise I'll prolly have to drop out.

Ditto, but...

 Haxadec

The Daniel Institute of Dream Interpretation
EPN

 I would also like to suggest that this be a round-robbin style tournament. I think it will be more fun because everyone gets to fight everyone else and it should be a better measure of skill imo.

Iv once soloed 4 people with MA....but that was a long time ago and mostly luck.

If 9mmfu doesint want use to win against numbers then maybe i should stop pvping lmao. its not that hard to beat 2 or even 3 people...and mkt CAN be countered but its like any other tree, it depends more on the person your fighting. It all depeneds on who your fighting (im refraining from mentioning specific names of people iv soloed when they had numbers)....soloing 2 or 3 people who know how to pvp is many orders of magnitute harder then soloing 2 or 3 people that never pvp.

other things that effect it are like...soloing 2 gunman is generally harder then 2 MAs because the MAs are of such limited help to one another while outside IL. I remember back when i was running gunman alot I soloed these 2 other gunmen...we were on this little ledge on the side of the church in marac...just went at it toe to toe....gunman vs 2gunman....as fair as a 2v1 fight can be. it was brutal (like a gunfight in an elevator hehe) there were no dirty tricks or heals or buffs or anything like that and we all 3 started at full health. these two were pretty promenent figures in a major faction and each of them were very good gunmen who pvped frequently...I killed one and then he reconned and came back and started attacking me while I was fighting the other...I died like 3 seconds after I killed the second guy. the whole fight took maybe 4-5 mins.

btw..."soloing" should be clarified as some people have a definition that I disagree with...To me soloing 2 people means that the 3 of you started at full health and you killed them both without any outside help and while they both were focusing all of their fire on you and no one else AND there is NO break between killing one and moving on to the next one. Some people think that if you kill someone, HJ away and heall up and come back and kill a second person then you have just soloed 2 people....this is just wrong.

 Interesting....sign me up.

Haxadec

"h4xb0t" "Nanohaxial" ....I have no idea who these people are, so don't ask!

Dream pvp team huh? I can't answer that because it would depend on not only the loadouts of those 6 people but also the loadouts of their opposition. But some of the people who have earned my respect as tough pvpers/duelers would include (but not limitied too cuz I suck with names)...

Zephyrstorm (havint seen him in a long time but I don't know anyone who can adapt to thier apponant like he did)

TH (I'v never been able to beat him consistantly in MA vs MA duels...never)

Razu and GQubed (I used to stomp these two...wth happened!?)

Blazinwolf (one of the best gunman I'v ever fought)

Vesuveus (only person I'v ever seen deleiver a 1 hit KO in MA vs MA...yes in IL and no it was w/o upgrade master buffs)

Naabu (hehe one time me and him tore a bunch of people apart in camon...both as MA and neither with buffed cloths)

Crowlos (has saved my butt more times then i can remember)

I am sure I am forgetting some people that should be on this list and I am sorry to those people. Some people that have made other's list would not make mine; even if they DO have 15k CQs; snipe/staggering throw + HJ + let team finish off = meaningless CQ.

The only thing I really see valid in that whole post is that you're EPN..and you're not on the list, so Cap0ne wouldn't get any sort of credit for the kill/CQ.

The rest was rather pointless (not to mention self-indulgent) for this thread, but that's just what I got out of it.  I have some random posts too..

Anytime you'd like to get off your high-horse, that'd be cool.

GG.

Oh nah you misunderstand my intent; I didnt mean for my post to come off like that. Alot of people kind of laughed at the nakked kills thing...I just wanted to point out that if I can do it then surly all of those people who call me a noob should be able to also right? I dont see anyone else posting CQs they got while they were w/o cloths so I just posted a few of mine in the spirit of this event.

*giggle*...So Capone was able to kill me while I was nakked and not stated for guns (you can see im loaded as guns in his screenie here) you can also see that he had to pop a health pill or two =). Oh btw...Im not zion...Im EPN.

Again while useing a loadout I am not stated for and w/o cloths....but this person didnt use health pills. (I also didnt snipe this person...I DID snipe someone else just before I fought this person and I COULD post the time stamped CQ for that kill too)...

http://img515.imageshack.us/my.php?...nshot205tn3.jpg

So whats the lesson you all should learn from this? That gunman is overpowered!? haha no no NO silly...

http://img515.imageshack.us/my.php?...nshot208lt9.jpg

omg was that logic cannon 1.0...1!!! but but....im not stated for hacker either.

psst....your CQ is showing.

No buffs??? surely you are only referring to being buffed by other people right? cuz I mean...no kung fu GM buff? no hyper dodge? what would be the point of that?!

(some day I may have to make my own tourny....everyone else always forgets the coder tree /shrug)

"Reward bonus of $i500,000 will be offered to any operative who scores a CQ with previously stated criteria whle they are naked."

For those who thought this was in anyway difficult; I offer the following as proof of concept...(yea I know they arent time stamped but these people arnt on the list anyways lol)

http://img399.imageshack.us/my.php?...nshot409fw4.jpg

http://img390.imageshack.us/my.php?...nshot406ge0.jpg

look close enough and you will see that I was useing a differnt loadout for each...guess which one I am not even stated for. =P

I find it funny how many screenshots are posted of CQs where the person posting it is standing 50+ meters away from the fight; standing in a stairwell, killing a low level, or hyperjumping away.

This is one of many examples of how I get CQs...
http://img474.imageshack.us/my.php?...nshot322vm6.jpg

Outnumbered and out gunned I stand and fight toe-to-toe. In the above screenshot; there are other machs offscreen and many of them had just came through the HL all the way from CamonC. I was told there was a good sized mach vs EPN battle in camon and these guys came out of the HL already flagged...my nerokinitics must of spiked because my 1v1 fight was felt halfway across richland.

Is it too late to sign up? I don't have a teammate but if I find someone who is willing then I might want to atleast contribute to the havoc a wittle bit. =)

 And uhmm *cough* during the progression event I racked up 222 mach CQ's and about another 150-200 merv CQ's just because they got in my way; totaling atleast 382 CQ's...so I'm am expecting the winning team here to exceed 400! *grin*

Happy hunting all.

Yea sorry Avalod but its really not as difficult as you make it sound. The first time I even went there me and Vesuveus walked all over the commandos with just the two of us. I was loaded as MA and he was loaded as rifleman.

Countinous stream of WDD+dim mak/ki charged foot sweep+ki charged punch+ three round burst if I remember correctly. (o and sky high kick...duh)

My general rule of thumb for this issue is to always move toward my enemy and never away. This makes PvP REEAAL easy because I just hold down the "w" key and never press the "s" key, "alt" key, or the space bar. =)

In my opinion; the objective of a war is to survive, the objective of PVP is to fight to the death and then recon. Running/HJing away is boring; and if you do either then you have already lost.

There are exceptions of course; such as when I run/HJ to chase some wimp who ran/HJed away. Sometimes this creates the illusion that I am running/HJing away because the person I am chasing is running/HJing away even though they and their buddies out number me 3 (or lmfao...10) to 1.

Lezel wrote:

YES! Having a true test of skill is a very sweet idea...count me in...only if its REAL no clothes, only skill...that is the only real way to test and find who is the best...I've been wanting to do something like this..only because no one will have room to talk *CENSORED*...if it will be based on pure skill ">

Isn't getting the right clothes skill? Then adapting to yours and not only your oppponents skill?

TH

Im sorry, but I disagree TH. "getting the right clothes" is only a measure of how long an individual has been playing, if anything. Fighting w/o clothes helps to level the playing field between not only those who sploit/dont sploit but also between rich/poor and between veteran beta players and nooblets like my self =).

I consider adaptation to be one of the greatest skills an individual can have; this is why I consider Zephyrstorm to be the best MA vs MA dueler around; and it is one of the reasons I change trees every now and then.

TH...I consider you 1 of the top 3 MAs around; but I have to ask...can you adapt to win a fight w/o cloths??? Many of the "best" flat out refuse to fight w/o cloths; I wonder why that is?

As much as I would love to repeat the success I had in the Golden Code...I have to withdraw from the MA, Gunman, and Spy tournaments because of work and school. I might still be able to make it to the Hacker tournament if it is in the evening MCT.

Hax

Name: Haxadec

Crew: The UnderGround Crew

Faction: The Daniel Institute of Dream Interpretation

Neurokinetic Level: 50

Tournament: MA, Guns, Hacker, Spy

I am only signing up for all of them to better my odds of making it to one, because I doubt I will be able to make it to any. =( But if anyone wants someone to practice against (for any tree, but iv never used spy and I suck really bad with it because I dont have  aclue how to use it lol) just send me a tell ! I will even give tips and strategies if your interested.

When I run my gunman pvp load I use 4 different hotbars; same for my upgrade master load; and 3 hot bars for my MA load. So would binding the combat tactics to a key help? yes! That might cut down the number of hotbars I use from 4 to uh umm 2!

I dont put buffs like kung fu grandmaster on my hotbar...nor evade combat. I do put hyper speed up there just because I like to have it turned off in IL. (alot of the time I dont even load hyper speed or hyper jump tho) I do not macro my buffs simply because that would take up another hotbar space.

On kind of a side note...I wish the number pad worked with the hot bar the same way the numbers accross the top of the key board do. I think that would make the whole game much more comfortable to play sort to speak.

Asa wrote:

We're not here to be popular.  We're here to do what needs to be done.  I whole heartedly agree with Raz.

Lies and slander.

Sorry for the sloppyness...didnt think id get them all posted in time. 222 by my count.

I craft all the time and all kinds of stuff....abs, tools (now), apperal, etc...I have been crafting since like lvl 3 or what ever lol (lvl 50 now). I never even relized that you could get more bits back then what you used. I pretty much stopped decoming items for bits back at lvl 30 because with farming for other stuff I get plenty of bits more or less by accedent. 

However, if your in a pinch you can always go to a low level vendor and buy some guns or cloths or what ever and decom those...they are cheap and with just a little experamenting you can find what items will give you the bits you need (I almost never need to do this but I remember reading it in the newbie guides back when I was lvl3). This is essentialy the same as what you have been doing except with less coding. From what I understand...your process of coding/compiling/decoming as a net gain of bits but also a net loss of info (untill you sell what you code of course)...The process I presented above has the same net gains and losses...more bits, less info (again untill you sell); but I immagin it will be much faster for gaining bits.

In addition; one thing Iv noticed with this new content/hotfix is that alot of the node spawned npcs and the data clusters drop massive amounts of bits...so much that I wish I could macro the recycle function. =)

Um yeah our history really shows that Machines should "trust" humans...

1860-65: American civil war (360,000) two democracies
1886-1908: Belgium-Congo Free State (3 million)
1899-02: British-Boer war (100,000)
1899-03: Colombian civil war (120,000)
1899-02: Philippines vs USA (20,000)
1900-01: Boxer rebels against Russia, Britain, France, Japan, USA against rebels (35,000)
1903: Ottomans vs Macedonian rebels (20,000)
1904: Germany vs Namibia (65,000)
1904-05: Japan vs Russia (150,000)
1910-20: Mexican revolution (250,000)
1911: Chinese Revolution (2.4 million)
1911-12: Italian-Ottoman war (20,000)
1912-13: Balkan wars (150,000)
1915: the Ottoman empire slaughters Armenians (1.2 million)
1914-18: World War I (8 million)
1916: Kyrgyz revolt against Russia (120,000)
1917-21: Soviet revolution (5 million)
1928-37: Chinese civil war (2 million)
1931: Japanese Manchurian War (1.1 million)
1932-33: Soviet Union vs Ukraine (7 million)
1934: Mao's Long March (170,000)
1936: Italy's invasion of Ethiopia (200,000)
1936-37: Stalin's purges (13 million)
1936-39: Spanish civil war (600,000)
1937-45: Japanese invasion of China (500,000)
1939-45: World War II (55 million) including holocaust and Chinese revolution
1946-49: Chinese civil war (1.2 million)
1946-49: Greek civil war (50,000)
1946-54: France-Vietnam war (600,000)
1947: Partition of India and Pakistan (1 million) two nominal democracies
1947: Taiwan's uprising against the Kuomintang (30,000)
1948-1958: Colombian civil war (250,000)
1948-1973: Arab-Israeli wars (70,000)
1949-: Indian Muslims vs Hindus (20,000)
1949-50: Mainland China vs Tibet (1,200,000)
1950-53: Korean war (4 million)
1952-59: Kenya's Mau Mau insurrection (20,000)
1954-62: French-Algerian war (368,000)
1958-61: Mao's "Great Leap Forward" (38 million)
1960-90: South Africa vs Africa National Congress (?)
1960-96: Guatemala's civil war (200,000)
1961-98: Indonesia vs West Papua/Irian (100,000)
1961-2003: Kurds vs Iraq (180,000)
1962-75: Mozambique Frelimo vs Portugal (?)
1964-73: USA-Vietnam war (3 million)
1965: second India-Pakistan war over Kashmir
1965-66: Indonesian civil war (200,000)
1966-69: Mao's "Cultural Revolution" (11 million)
1966-: Colombia's civil war (31,000)
1967-70: Nigeria-Biafra civil war (800,000)
1968-80: Rhodesia's civil war (?)
1969-: Philippines vs New People's Army (40,000)
1969-79: Idi Amin, Uganda (300,000)
1969-02: IRA - Norther Ireland's civil war (2,000)
1969-79: Francisco Macias Nguema, Equatorial Guinea (50,000)
1971: Pakistan-Bangladesh civil war (500,000)
1972-: Philippines vs Muslim separatists (120,000)
1972: Burundi's civil war (300,000)
1972-79: Rhodesia/Zimbabwe's civil war (30,000)
1974-91: Ethiopian civil war (1,000,000)
1975-78: Menghitsu, Ethiopia (1.5 million)
1975-79: Khmer Rouge, Cambodia (1.7 million)
1975-89: Boat people, Vietnam (250,000)
1975-90: civil war in Lebanon (40,000)
1975-87: Laos' civil war (184,000)
1975-2002: Angolan civil war (500,000)
1976-83: Argentina's military regime (20,000)
1976-93: Mozambique's civil war (900,000)
1976-98: Indonesia-East Timor civil war (600,000)
1976-2005: Indonesia-Aceh (GAM) civil war (12,000)
1979: Vietnam-China war (30,000)
1979-88: the Soviet Union invades Afghanistan (1.3 million)
1980-88: Iraq-Iran war (1 million)
1980-92: Sendero Luminoso - Peru's civil war (69,000)
1980-92: El Salvador's civil war (75,000)
1980-99: Kurds vs Turkey (35,000)
1981-90: Nicaragua vs Contras (60,000)
1982-90: Hissene Habre, Chad (40,000)
1983-2002: Sri Lanka's civil war (64,000)
1983-2002: Sudanese civil war (2 million)
1986-: Indian Kashmir's civil war (60,000)
1987-: Palestinian Intifada (4,500)
1988-2001: Afghanistan civil war (400,000)
1988-2004: Somalia's civil war (550,000)
1989-: Liberian civil war (220,000)
1989-: Uganda vs Lord's Resistance Army (30,000)
1991: Gulf War - large coalition against Iraq to liberate Kuwait (85,000)
1991-97: Congo's civil war (800,000)
1991-2000: Sierra Leone's civil war (200,000)
1991-: Russia-Chechnya civil war (200,000)
1991-94: Armenia-Azerbaijan war (35,000)
1992-96: Tajikstan's civil war war (50,000)
1992-96: Yugoslavia's civil war (260,000)
1992-99: Algerian civil war (150,000)
1993-97: Congo Brazzaville's civil war (100,000)
1993-2005: Burundi's civil war (200,000)
1994: Rwanda's civil war (900,000)
1995-: Pakistani Sunnis vs Shiites (1,300)
1995-: Maoist rebellion in Nepal (12,000)
1998-: Congo/Zaire's war - Rwanda and Uganda vs Zimbabwe, Angola and Namibia (3.8 million)
1998-2000: Ethiopia-Eritrea war (75,000)
1999: Kosovo's liberation war - NATO vs Serbia (2,000)

And then to make it even worst.  When we finally united with each other we attempted to wipe out the machines and as a result "WE" killed all animal and plant life on the surface of the planet.

But I guess none of that matters because Aquatium and his band of merry men are "different."

Why am I not suprised that you forgot to add how many people the machines have killed, but then how could you since no one knows an exact number. How bout we try just for kicks though?

hundreds of millions?

1 billion?

nah I think its more like...

billionS murdered, untold Billions more judged guilty of crimes others commited and imprisoned at birth.

Oh yes...lets be like the machines because they stand on the moral high ground!!!...((How about we just execute everyone because a few have murdered others?)) By your logic; or is it the machines logic? I dunno; we should judge all the machines based on Smith's actions.

And while your screaming that none of us address your points, how bout you adress ours.

"Here are the major arguing points that Zionites have been making.

• The machines were just looking for an excuse to go to war
• New Zion is just a defensive base
• The machines "Assume" that Zion would attack them from their new base
• The machines broke the truce numerous times because of the Cypherites."

I relize you ment zions in general and not just me and all that but...

Given the terms of the "truce"; o and uh umm the fact that when Neo orginaly bargined for (PEACE!!!) the machines immediate responce was hostile, it wasint untill Neo pointed out that only he could save THEM did they even consider the "truce"; it was doomed from the start and I think that was by design. I mean seriously...if their machines are so super A.I. smart then howd they come up with such a flawed "truce" if they actually ment for it to work?

If I have ever said new zion is a defensive base then I appolagize...I mis-spoke. In my opnion it is simply Zion expanding to accomadait a larger population. If not understanding how New Zion is a threat makes me so dumb then why can't any of you explain how it IS a threat given the tactical options avialabe to the machines?

When your strongest argument is "So and so said this...your not all unified...Im judging you all on what so and so said" you lose a whole lot of respect and ground to stand on. And while your screaming that none of us address your points, how bout you address ours. ((Is it part of every machs charachter to be insanly hypocritical? Or am I doing the same thing they do and judging them all based on the words and actions of the ones that ARE hypocritcal in order to support my point?))

Aquatium. wrote:

Sphairo87 wrote:

1) He never said that, you might want to brush up on that, spin doctor.
2) she wipes some wine off her nose, trying to contain her laughter
3) See above ^
4) The purpose for this new base is clearly *not* about peace, otherwise it wouldn't have been built as such, so the machines could not get to it. It.would.not be built as indestructable, as fortified and as potentially dangerous (Drilling even closer to the earths inner core and mantel is a reeeeal smart idea) if zions leadership wasn't prepering something. You don't need to ask the oracle to work that out, killer.   Who's got what now held to their head? Oh, you mean this? Ahhhh, okie dokie!

Your words hold about as much meaning as the kid trying to get himself a girl, and that's saying something.

spha x

1.  Agent Gray: In the past the city was repopulated following a reset of the simulation. A vital factor contributing to such a rest no longer exists. Therefore, the old system of re-establishing the city of Zion is no longer valid and may not be nescessary.

They won't let Zion exist should they destroy it.

2. I suggest using your mouth to drink wine.
3. See above ^

4. They spent all this time making a base to protect themselves, a base that can't attack the Matrix or 01.

As I said, it doesn't matter how much weight you think my words hold, that doesn't take away the message they are conveying, you and other simply wish to ignore and acknowledge, your own ego is doing this.

 

The fact that you still don't understand how a defensive base can be seen as a threat is just plain ignorant and immature.  It either shows that you do not know human history or don't care.  I feel sorry for those that are following you and trust in you.  You still don't get it.  I would have more respect for you if you would move on from this as an argument because it does not hold water.  All military leaders of our history would know that it would be seen as a threat.  As a matter of fact even the Zion leaders knew that which is why they didn't tell the small peons like you about it.  Zionites can now operate any way they please in the Matrix which would harm bluepills without fear of retribution because they have their super secret Cybertron underground base that the machines cannot touch.  The deterrence is no longer there.  Refute that one baby Neo, and back it up without a one liner that includes calling me sheep and puppets, bring some substance as to why I am wrong and not because you say so.  As a human I can admit that had the humans won the war and if we allowed the machines to survive, and that is a stretch with our genocidal history, we would never, ever, ever allow them to be on equal footing with humans nor ever build a defensive base against us.  If the machines came to us and said, Just trust us and have faith, we would laugh in their face.  If you cannot admit that then you are a biased fool.

"Niobe, you were thankful that Neo bought you two years.  But if you'd abided by the truce, he could have bought you *forever*." - Illyria

"We started working on a backup plan for a new base right after the Machines almost destroyed Zion." ~ Niobe

 

((If you truly feel this way then I thought you were cooler then this satta))

Old zion has not been evacuated and will not be...given the physical locations of 01, old Zion, and new zion building the new city with fortifications is essentially the same thing has standing toe to toe with your enemy and putting on a bullet proof vest while they hold a kneife to your neck. THIS is why the consruction of New Zion should not be a threat.

Let me spell it out for you again since you machs dont seem to graps the options avialable to you in the current tactical situation...

"Zionites can now operate any way they please in the Matrix which would harm bluepills without fear of retribution because they have their super secret Cybertron underground base that the machines cannot touch.  The deterrence is no longer there.  Refute that one..." Attack old Zion...the place where all our families and friends are living with little or no defense capable of stoping a sentenal army.

If you honestly think that Zionites would make a hostile move even with this new base then you have lost much of your humanity and I feel bad for those that would call you a friend.

*shakes his head in disapointment* Its amazing how good we all are at not understanding one another...I mean seriously; were supposed to be social creatures?

Im sorry but I am not going to try to address every single point made...theres just too many and I think there are more important things to be said.

In my opinion we humans that find our selves on differnt sides of the fences sort to speak...zion/epn/machine operatives....it seems we all want the same thing. This is not unexpected in light of what it is we all want...Iv heard many of you machine operatives say you want to uphold "the truce"; as an EPN I wish for peace. "Peace" is what Neo actually said...not "truce". Many of you machs have used these two words interchangably but I do not; to me "truce" is a lesser dagree of peace. A truce is defined by rules; "you can free X amount of bluepills and you cant destroy us" for example. Peace on the other hand, requires no such rules or boundries. To me A truce is the middle ground between peace and war...what makes me an extreamist is that I think peace is worth going to war over; when you add the undiniable fact that THE "truce" was obviously doomed to fail from the beginning because it left Zion with the decision to either exband the city/ build a new city, or cull the population/die of starvation ((I know i might be exagerating a tiny bit here but only to epmhasize a point))...the decision of what action to take becomes very clear.

This is why I am EPN...because anything short of peace; the peace that Neo actually barginined for; is unacceptable. THE "truce" was unaccaptable.

I call it THE "truce" because I find it hard to see as A truce. I think a truce is infinitly negotiatable ((hehe that sounds good if I do say so myself))...Did the machines try to talk to Zion about the new city before the order was given to stop all bluepill awakenings? Before war was declared? How many lives have been lost since the start of this war? because thats how many deaths could have been avoided by a phone call. You said we have to prove to them that we have changed but we don't jump at the chance to declar war. take the cuban missile crisis for example; if we had handeled that the way the machines handeled the discovery of new zion would humans have been around to build the machines in the first place? THAT was obviously a hostile move...building a bunker on the other hand; well we have already been over this.

I'm serious, Zion.  Please, explain to me why the machines or us Machinists should trust you?  What reasons have you given us to do so?  I'll list the reasons why we don't, and why you needed to prove to us you'd changed before we could have had real peace... I'm hoping some of you can respond with valid reasons why we should trust you.

 It almost sounds like you admit that the "truce" that was given is not the "peace" that was bargined for. Carefull, your a yellow flag away from being called a terrorist.

1.  From humanity's beginning, we have always been a violent race.  War has always been the principle way in which we've provoked change and growth in our world.  Even when we didn't share the world with another sentient species, we were constantly fighting each other for power, land, wealth or even theological beliefs.  We have always been a violent race, and we have always been a danger to this planet, and ourselves.

This applies to every living organism on the planet if you simply change the word "war" to the word "conflict"...Do the machines judge rabbits as being worthy of enslavment?

2. When the machines first rose up as sentient beings, we enslaved them and grew fat on their backs.  They did all the work, we got to do all the playing.  They were not considered equals and they were treated worse than most any other species on the planet.

3. When one stood up for himself and killed humans in self defense, we destroyed him and refused to acknowledge that machines might have rights.  They were eventually herded away and isolated, much like the Native Americans who were placed on reservations centuries earlier.  History repeated itself, it seems.

Points two and three are so related I will address them both here...Yup your completly right...Human beings have been doing this kind of thing to each other for thousands of years, however we are slowly but diffently changing. I point to the American civil war as evidence of that change.

4. They established their own society and culture and quickly became more productive than us.  They came to the UN to seek friendship, partnership... we destroyed their representatives and nuked their home.  The war was quick and brutal.  We lost.

((I cant comment on this...where are you getting this from?))

5. We spent the next six or more centuries trying to destroy the machines, not realizing it was all part of a cycle put in place to keep us under control.  Our motives had not changed one bit.  We desired their extinction and our return to prominence.

We were obviously working under false information or a lack of information. We didn't even know what year it was and given the reality of the situation we were in it is hard to believe that any of us could have come to any other conclusion other then that the machines are hostile and are bent on our continued bondage as a species even if that ment our slaugher as individuals.

6. The cycle was broken and humanity was given a chance to prove it had grown, that it was no longer the violence driven and destructive race we had been throughout our history.  We responded by fracturing into multiple organizations and fighting amongst ourselves for more power, for control of the future, control of the people waking up from the system.

I suspect this will be a matter of opinion...I see this as proof that we have grown as a species. The machines are "guilty" of this too if you want to call it a flaw. And they arnt of one mind either...otherwise the exiles wouldint exist.

7. Zion spent the two years paid for with Neo's life building a fortress to separate themselves from the Machines, rather than work with them toward peace.  We, as a species, wasted the opportunity we had to show the machines we were no longer what they were once forced to imprison.  We are once again at war.

Us seperate ourselves from them??? Correct me if Im wrong but the machine city is exactly defensless either. I mean...humanity (except neo obviously) has no where near the capability to over come those defenses...so what are the machines so afriad of? The rabbits?

So, I ask you, Zion.  With these facts laid out for you, it's not hard to see why the Machines don't trust us enough to just back away and let us do as we please.  What reasons have you, as an organization, given them to do so?  Why do you just expect them to hand you the keys to the hovercraft and let you be on your way with all of this hanging on us from the past?

We've done nothing, as far as I can see, to show them we've changed.  Neo, a great man, was apparently too far ahead of his time to have a lasting impact.  He realized what we had to do.  It's just a shame that the rest of our species apparently wasn't ready to take those steps.

With an EPN tag over my head I confidently stare you right in the eyes and say one word in regards to your last comment, "Agreed"

I blocked 80%+ of all the punts that came my way before this update anyways. What I dont understand is why I can block so many sneak attacks but absolutly nothing works to block/outroll kneives in IL. Iv tried differnt loads of MA and guns and no matter what kind of accuracy or defience or weather Im on speed/power/grab/block or differnt clothing; I simply get hit with a constent stream of knives. The only counter to a MKT that I have found is to have max resistance and hope that Im still alive after they have ran out of IS; and dispite what MKTs say, the IS cost of kneives is considerably lower then MA or gunman abilities.

Anyways; I completly disagree that MKT needs more accuracy. If anything hackers and coder need more accuracy or something/anything that will make them more previlent in pvp... * start chant* More verity of classes in pvp! More verity of classes in pvp!

Let me rephrase.  The Machines will not want humans to live as equals to them until they believe humans are capable of it...that humans won't take the first chance they get to strike out at the Machines or try to destroy them all again.  So far, we have not proven this to the Machines, so they are still wary.

 

Illyria

Humanity could never possably prove this if the machines never give us a chance to. The machines should either allow us to build our own defensive capabilties or destroy their own...then see what happens. Then it becomes humanity's move and what we do or don't do will be all the prove the machines need. Of course the machines would need to be sure that humanity doesint have a justifiable reason to attack the machines. You know...like other then the whole judging every individual human being as guilty of wanting to destroy the machines...life long imprisonment...gah the list is so overwhelmingly long I'm just gonna stop here.

"Live as equals to them" ??? I don't know if you ment it like this but it sounds like your putting them on some higher ethical ground. Im not saying humans are perfect but ignoring how machines treat us for a minute and lets take a look at how they treat each other. Deleation for any program that is judged obsoleat. I hold the existance of the entire exile population as evidence of exactly how ethical the machines can be...look at how the machines treated Smith when neo first (or second if you count the fight in the subway) destroyed him, attempted deleation. Or poor Sati...there is no justification for killing or deleating her.

((Does anyone else find it odd that when humanity first nuked 01 the machines survived the "heat and radiation" AND the emp that is given off by a nuke blast? But now days emp is like their greatest weakness.))

169 total now

Satta; new zion may be more heavly fortified then old zion, but it is located farther away from the machine city and we are not abandoning old zion. And if it was some sort of hostile move then we would have built it between old zion and the machine city...we would have put it on the machines door step...not out in the middle of no where. lmao; it only stands to reason that under the terms of "the truce" we should be able to expand (or build a second city) in order to accomadate the new redpills. If the machines really wanted the "truce" to work then they would not expect zion to fit 250k + 1% of billions into 1 underground city that had been so heavly damaged. "1%" of just 1 billion is 10 million people in 1 cave...you mean to tell me that the mighty machines in all their wisedom thought this would work???

From all the "stances" and what not that I'v read it seems to me that everyone is fighting for the same thing (or so they say) but those of us in EPN are simply fighting for more of it.

"And again (for at least the 12th time), show me examples from history where the losers of wars were allowed to rebuild their military where it didn't lead to another war.  We lost the war, humans have no right to demand a new city or fortifications.  Until you can respond to that point, don't bother replying, as it is really what matters here."

 We lost?! Dang all that cheering for nothin. =(

No but seriously; in the final battle between zion and the sentinal army we were on the defensive, our goal was the same as it is in any other battle...to survive. To borrow the words of a great man because these words are STILL true..."We are still here!"....Therefor, we did not lose so giving the example you request is a waste of time because it is not related to the current situation. So in light of all the facts and the conclusions we can draw from those facts; we have to ask...How could you have possably ever think your above question/statement is both true or worth while posting? I have no idea but I do have a theory. This sounds exactly like the thinking of a machine to me; a machine despertly trying to make as many rules and boundries as it can for a population of humans that it can niether control or understand with the ultamate purpose of forcing we humans across those boundries so that the machines could point to that and blame us humans for breaking "the truce".

Don't blame the beast for biting you when you back it into a cornor.